Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: killingeve on March 17, 2012, 08:18:PM
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Sheila's early behavioural problems:
Bullied at school and expelled from school x 2:
http://www.emkpress.com/pdffiles/alexanderguide.pdf
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So agree with you about Sheila's possible state of mind egap1. Have watched the videos and found them extremely moving. Poor Sheila, she may very well have inherited the genetics of mental illness which made her whole situation much harder to bare than Jeremy who obviously had inherited a different set of genes. All the drug taking and stuff which she was involved in, is a form of selfharm, she possibly believed she didn't deserve anything better.
I just question whether she really meant to kill her parents as well or if she just wanted to escape and could not leave her children behind. It appears to a healthy mind to kill your children is a wicked act but to Sheila it would have been an act of love. I still wonder if she was discovered by June or Ralph before she killed herself and that is how they came to die as well. I doubt we will ever know the answer to that.
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I think the answer to what actually happened at whf that night / evening rests with the withheld material under pii...
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So agree with you about Sheila's possible state of mind egap1. Have watched the videos and found them extremely moving. Poor Sheila, she may very well have inherited the genetics of mental illness which made her whole situation much harder to bare than Jeremy who obviously had inherited a different set of genes. All the drug taking and stuff which she was involved in, is a form of selfharm, she possibly believed she didn't deserve anything better.
I just question whether she really meant to kill her parents as well or if she just wanted to escape and could not leave her children behind. It appears to a healthy mind to kill your children is a wicked act but to Sheila it would have been an act of love. I still wonder if she was discovered by June or Ralph before she killed herself and that is how they came to die as well. I doubt we will ever know the answer to that.
I think it's interesting that Sheila's grandfather was the Reverend Eric G. Jay and her father a curate, and due to the times (late 1950's), Sheila had to be adopted for 'decency's' sake. She was, however, somehow placed with the Bambers, with June who became obsessively religious. Was there a conflict here in June's mind, or Sheila's? The Jays are from Tiptree. Did they know each other already, I wonder? In the other thread about Sheila's letters to her natural mother, her uncle (from Tiptree) says at the end of his statement he recognised Sheila's handwriting because she had written to him in the past.
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Interesting HMEssex. The hypocrisy is sickening ie a member of senior clergy allowing his grandchild to be adopted by a mentally unstable genetic stranger due to societal stigma, created in the main by the church/religion, whilst many senior clergy were sexually abusing children supposedly in their care. Thank God I'm an atheist! No offence intended for people of faith.
I think you're right about conflicts. I would suggest June's mental illness in 1959 was the start of Sheila's troubles and the eventual downfall of the whole family.
Most adoptions carried out in the 50's/60's were arranged via the church or non-profit agencies and were 'closed' meaning that birth and adoptive parents remained anonymous to each other. Both sets of parents would have received unidentifying background info. Sheila and Jeremy will have two birth certs. One will state the names given to them by their birth parents along with the birth parents details and the other states the names given to them by Nevill and June ie Sheila and Jeremy and will contain Nevill and June's details. To obtain their original birth certs Sheila and Jeremy would have had to have met with a social worker and receive a one-off counselling session. They would then be free to undertake a search which is obviously what Sheila did.
Do you know why Sheila's birth mother, and grandmother to the twins, didn't attend the funerals? Instead Sheila's birth Uncle (Peter I think?) attended? Maybe just practical/logistical reasons ie he was on the doorstep and her birth mother in Canada? Or Perhaps too upsetting given that they had only recently been reunited? Or maybe some rift between the two had developed and she felt guilty bearing in mind at the time of the funerals all believed Sheila was responsible for the murders/suicide?
Are you from the Tiptree area? Do they still make the jam there? Use to like those little pots so you could have a whole variety on the go but haven't seen them for ages?
Egap, Peter Jay most likely attended the funeral as he was nearby - Tiptree is only four miles from Tolleshunt D'Arcy. Is it normal to place an adopted child so close to their natural family? It's also possible Sheila met him even before she met her mother. I wonder whether June was aware of the contact or supported it as Sheila was expecting a call from her mother that night.
I live about 20 miles from Tiptree. Since the weather is so nice lately I may take a drive up to the jam factory I'm sure they have a tearoom and shop!
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I think the answer to what actually happened at whf that night / evening rests with the withheld material under pii...
It's possible, but you could be wrong
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It's possible, but you could be wrong
Yes, I agree with your point about what actually happened at whf that night / evening resting with the withheld material under pii... being wrong based on the fact that evidence has already been destroyed, and if EP wanted to make sure damaging or incriminating evidence against them did /does not come to light they simply have to shred / destroy it and then make up some feeble excuse as to why this happened!
(Although I still support the full disclosure of all material currently withheld, whether it affects the case or not!)
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Hi egap, welcome back. Interesting reading, it does make perfect sense, they are the crucial years for a child. Poor Sheila had a very insecure start in life. I read somewhere that June had a great deal of guilt because of what she saw as her inability to give Sheila enough care as a young baby. Adoption is a many layered business, so many emotions are involved for the mother, for most the driving force is to ensure the child feels safe. The fact that June couldn't do that must have caused her severe stress, which Sheila would have sensed as well as suffereng the unavoidable stresses that an adopted child experiences.
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aggression & depression at the same time is unhealthy?
I must say if you read my school reports I believe I could out do Sheila's!
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As an adoptee to meet your birth mum is a massively stressful event. In this country, I believe there is counselling and help now before a meeting is agreed. I know from experience that meeting a birth mother/family without preparation is enormously difficult for the most secure and well balanced child. For Sheila with all her insecurities and illness it was probably far too much. She may have put so many hopes and dreams onto this meeting and found they came to nothing.
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Nicky Campbell is on the one show talking about meeting his adoptive mum at this moment.
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I amnot sure if this is readable
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It is readable if you enlarge it
no wonder Neville rang Jeremy, Sheila really must have been in the last chance saloon with the twins.
If the police knew she had been brandishing a gun running around WHF she would no doubt have lost the twins forever
None of the family that night would have known Sheila would actually have fired the gun, she had never shot anyone before
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nicky is a brilliant patron I have watched him many times talking about adoption
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Egap I will look tomorrow, if I cant do it I think Keira or Neil could help me. I will get back to you tomorrow.
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Packagebuilder I'm assuming you're male? As anyone in the teaching profession will tell you boys tend to behave worse and achieve less, academically, than girls pre 16 so your school reports may not be that atypical.
I don't know if you attended a state or private school but again it would be highly unusual for a girl in the 1960's/1970's to be expelled twice from a private fee paying school from a middle class/high socio-economic background. If it happened today the school would bring in a child psychiatrist.
Yes I am male :) I did get expelled three time, and have been bullied too? I said to be social immature with obsessive tendenices, learning problems ect they said I attemped suicide twice ??? this was in 2006/7.
But I don't what to say anymore I don't what to damage myself! ;D
But College reports are all good, hard work and very friendly person, has good circle of friends etc :D
I say secondry schools reports are not worth the paper its printed on & shouldn't have any standing too! >:(
Mind you I still get depressed over them! I still have those reports in my bedroom to this day and look at them :'(
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I amnot sure if this is readable
Jackie is this a section of a statement that has only recently come to light? I found Babs Wilson's statement excerpt a bit of an eye opener . I'm not sure what was contained the rest of the same statement, so it's difficult to place it entirely in context.
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Rochy thats all I have got and I believe its something that was witheld.
I think both statements point to Jeremy being innocent
Who made the decision to withold them they should be sued
Someone needs to be held accountable, there must have been brown envelopes going everywhere or caravans
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Mike, in your opinion, what sort of info are we talking about that if disclosed would be so damaging to the public interest? At the end of the day this is a domestic albeit a very tragic one. We're not talking about a threat to national security or something similar.
National Security a little suprised to see this again, quite certain the core of the witheld data will be on what happened from the storming starting from when the door was forced open from there.
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I don't think its national security, more like total police fails!! :-\
But the quicker CCRC approves Jeremy's appeal, the less damaging it will be! yes its 25 year too late but, better then 50 years time!
I would say that Essex police has made mistakes in this case I do, having a quick look at michael stones case I believe hes innocent too! ???
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Sheila's early behavioural problems:
Bullied at school and expelled from school x 2:
http://www.emkpress.com/pdffiles/alexanderguide.pdf
Has anybody ever looked at the medication she was on and/or therapy and what the side effects could have been? The reason I ask is that I used to work with a young chap who had psychotic episodes and acted much like he was 'possessed' he would become incredibly strong and violent. He had several courses of ECT. While having this and for a period after he would become docile and engage with us but every time his behaviour would regress and each time it did he would become increasingly violent, delusional and incoherent. Could Sheila have suffered a violent episode as a result of something like this? Having read some of the statements she seems to have become more placid after treatment but then quickly reverted back to her previous behaviour (and possibly worse)?
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Apologies if this has been asked before, but was Sheila's adoption a private negotiation? It would have been a huge coincidence if it was otherwise. My mother refused all local children fearing their close proximity to birth relatives. Is it possible that June's doctor might not have approved adoption?
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Apologies if this has been asked before, but was Sheila's adoption a private negotiation? It would have been a huge coincidence if it was otherwise. My mother refused all local children fearing their close proximity to birth relatives. Is it possible that June's doctor might not have approved adoption?
I think Sheila was adopted through the church of england adoption society which was a recognised society at that time. The attitude and understanding to mental illness was so different in 1950s/early 1960s, it tended to be swept under the carpet and not talked about. Also, there was little general awareness of the effect such illness may have on an adopted, or indeed natural child. Of course, it could be a tragedy for such children, no one would deny that.
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egap1 - can you shed any light on my post earlier in this thread about Sheila's treatment/medication.therapy? You seem to be well versed in the psychological/mental health side of things.
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I believe Sheila was misdiagnosed as being schizophrenic when in fact she had dissociative identity disorder:
http://www.medicinenet.com/dissociative_identity_disorder/article.htm
I have no knowledge/experience of any prescribed medication used to treat mental illness just a bit of basic knowledge on the psychological aspect.
I would also question whether June and Sheila's psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, was competent in terms of his qualifications and ethics:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2310.msg69862.html#msg69862
Sheila's mental state was the major line of defence at trial!?
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Thank you egap1, I was just wondering whether any treatment caused a deterioration in her behaviour over time as I have experienced this. In the experience I had a 55kilo person had to be 'restrained' by up to 12 (much larger, well trained and experienced) adults and after a lapse of time after ECT the strength just seemd to increase. I think that if Sheila was capable of similar it would answer a lot of the questions regarding how the family (in particular Ralph) were overpowered, but no doubt, in 27 years, this avenue has been well explored.
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Given that several members of Sheila's birth family were academics it would be doing her a disservice to write her off as an airhead. We know that at a certain stage of development a child sees itself as being responsible for what is happening in its' world. It is likely that Sheila believed that it was her fault that June had been absent for a while. At 2/3 it may not have been deemed necessary to give an explanation, but if one was given, it's possible that June may have said that she was poorly because of what she went through to have Sheila. Innocent enough words, perhaps, but enough to make a once rejected child feel in danger of causing a second. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that June told her she must be a good girl for Mummy or she would be ill again. If this was so, most of her thoughts during her school life, especially at a boarding school, would have been taken up with worrying about whether or not her mother was still there and having been disruptive enough to get herself expelled and presumably sent home to find she was, she was probably told by her mother how bad she was, how ungrateful, how she would never make anything of herself and possibly the Ultimate, "I should have left you where you were, I should never have had you"
In the end I believe she lived her life complying with how her mother told her it would be and "She" became very lost in the process, but had she been given positive, instead of negative affirmation, there was enough academia in her genetics for her life to have been entirely different.
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april1 do you think she was spoken to like that all the time? That fills me with horror. I know she was quoted as calling her 'harlot' and 'devil's child' in a way these are terms tho strange and angry could be apologised away as of the heat of the moment and do not go to the heart the way the phrases you used would, they would do great damage to a child.
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april1 do you think she was spoken to like that all the time? That fills me with horror. I know she was quoted as calling her 'harlot' and 'devil's child' in a way these are terms tho strange and angry could be apologised away as of the heat of the moment and do not go to the heart the way the phrases you used would, they would do great damage to a child.
Maggie, in answer to your first question. Enough times to seriously seriously devalue her sense of selfworth, but she would never have forgotton it had they been said only once. And think again about the descriptions "harlot" and "devils child" levied, I imagine with venom at a child who has no idea of its' parentage, it takes on whole new meaning and does indeed do untold damage. Thankfully, some are made of stronger stuff than Sheila and even manage to do a degree-after YEARS of therapy!!!!!
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Maggie, in answer to your first question. Enough times to seriously seriously devalue her sense of selfworth, but she would never have forgotton it had they been said only once. And think again about the descriptions "harlot" and "devils child" levied, I imagine with venom at a child who has no idea of its' parentage, it takes on whole new meaning and does indeed do untold damage. Thankfully, some are made of stronger stuff than Sheila and even manage to do a degree-after YEARS of therapy!!!!!
No, I do realise an adopted child is an extremely vulnerable child. I was not excusing any name calling, what I meant, with strong links between child and parent things are sometimes said which aren't meant, with love and apology the odd mistake can be ovecome. Because Sheila had schizophrenia and was probably showing signs of this in early adolescence it may have been that she dwelt heavily on random phrases. I am not excusing any sort of abuse, as far as we know ie. according to JB, Sheila was a happy child with no apparent issues with her adoption. I try to keep an open mind that is all unless we know the facts.
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No, I do realise an adopted child is an extremely vulnerable child. I was not excusing any name calling, what I meant, with strong links between child and parent things are sometimes said which aren't meant, with love and apology the odd mistake can be ovecome. Because Sheila had schizophrenia and was probably showing signs of this in early adolescence it may have been that she dwelt heavily on random phrases. I am not excusing any sort of abuse, as far as we know ie. according to JB, Sheila was a happy child with no apparent issues with her adoption. I try to keep an open mind that is all unless we know the facts.
Children who are victims of any sort of abuse are often reluctant to "spill the beans" Sometimes it's because they love the abuser, frequently it's because they have been made to feel the fault is theirs and if they would only do as they were told, things would improve. Equally, it could be that they are threatened with dreadful consequences if they tell what is happening to them and that would include telling siblings.
I don't imagine that Sheila and Jeremy were close. If nothing else, Sheila's abuse would have created a barrier between them. It is highly likely that they experienced similar treatment, but there are secrets which can't be shared. When Jeremy said Sheila was a happy child, it's possible that it was a throwaway comment or he needed to believe it in order to keep happy his memories of his own childhood. If only they could have talked to each other. But perhaps not!!
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Children who are victims of any sort of abuse are often reluctant to "spill the beans" Sometimes it's because they love the abuser, frequently it's because they have been made to feel the fault is theirs and if they would only do as they were told, things would improve. Equally, it could be that they are threatened with dreadful consequences if they tell what is happening to them and that would include telling siblings.
I don't imagine that Sheila and Jeremy were close. If nothing else, Sheila's abuse would have created a barrier between them. It is highly likely that they experienced similar treatment, but there are secrets which can't be shared. When Jeremy said Sheila was a happy child, it's possible that it was a throwaway comment or he needed to believe it in order to keep happy his memories of his own childhood. If only they could have talked to each other. But perhaps not!!
I've read that Sheila was shy as a child, so perhaps more sensitive than Jeremy, and she would probably have internalised any negative comments (not that I'm excusing June), and through low self-esteem came to believe them. I had comments made to me as a teenager and took them to heart even though some were made in jest. That's most likely true of many of us yet we get over it. As Sheila and Jeremy came from different gene pools they maybe coped with their upbringing differently and perhaps June was harsher on Sheila as she was a girl, and this is where the nature vs nuture comes into play etc..
Jeremy and Sheila were both packed off to boarding schools when they were young so they wouldn't have had a chance to get close except during school holidays - not sure if they would have written to each other. Once they got older they did seem to socialise together quite a bit.
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On the Eric Allison (The Guardian) 6 minute interview with Jeremy. He says some lovely things about Shelia....How she would look after him when he was young...He said she was beautiful and he would love going to stay in London with her when he was 15..he would go out with Shelia and her friends, he loved it. He talks very fondly of her.....He also says, he wished he could have spoken to her and understood her illness more, but he didn't....and, it was something that he regretted....Aww :)
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I've read that Sheila was shy as a child, so perhaps more sensitive than Jeremy, and she would probably have internalised any negative comments (not that I'm excusing June), and through low self-esteem came to believe them. I had comments made to me as a teenager and took them to heart even though some were made in jest. That's most likely true of many of us yet we get over it. As Sheila and Jeremy came from different gene pools they maybe coped with their upbringing differently and perhaps June was harsher on Sheila as she was a girl, and this is where the nature vs nuture comes into play etc..
Jeremy and Sheila were both packed off to boarding schools when they were young so they wouldn't have had a chance to get close except during school holidays - not sure if they would have written to each other. Once they got older they did seem to socialise together quite a bit.
Hi HMEssex,
Shy or repressed? And if she was being bullied at school she could hardly take her problems to Jean because she was being bullied by her, too. I guess we know how Sheila felt about school, getting herself expelled twice says it very loudly. I remember reading somewhere that Jeremy, too, said something along the lines of not knowing why they adopted him if they intended to send him away again.
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I wonder why she had two abortions? Was she married at the time? :)
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Hi HMEssex,
Shy or repressed? And if she was being bullied at school she could hardly take her problems to Jean because she was being bullied by her, too. I guess we know how Sheila felt about school, getting herself expelled twice says it very loudly. I remember reading somewhere that Jeremy, too, said something along the lines of not knowing why they adopted him if they intended to send him away again.
I think Sheila was shy and June was repressed!
I don't know why Sheila was expelled or what ages she was when this happened.
I imagine loads of children wonder why they are sent away to boarding school. Although it's a class thing in most cases, the only time I could have personally agreed with this option is when my two were teenagers and were horrible - if I had had the funds I would have gladly have sent them!
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Patti, I believe that one pregnancy occured when she was in the courtship stage with CF.
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I think Sheila was shy and June was repressed!
I don't know why Sheila was expelled or what ages she was when this happened.
I imagine loads of children wonder why they are sent away to boarding school. Although it's a class thing in most cases, the only time I could have personally agreed with this option is when my two were teenagers and were horrible - if I had had the funds I would have gladly have sent them!
;D ;D ;D like it HME can I send them to boarding school in their 20s? ;D I think Sheila hated her frist boarding school and loved her second (according to Jeremy). We have to remember she was probably showing signs of her illness from eary adolescence and could have been very withdrawn and dissassociated.