Author Topic: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones  (Read 196949 times)

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Offline nugnug

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1635 on: October 04, 2019, 07:40:PM »
I have already pointed out that the scarcity of sperm heads rules out direct ejaculation on the fabric.

The sperm got there from the washing machine

"A recent study by Canadian researchers demonstrated that sperm cells could be transferred from semen stained bedding to clean underwear during washing in a machine.  Identifiable male DNA profiles were obtained.  The same group also looked at the transfer of female vaginal material in the wash and the background levels of DNA and semen present on underwear from children.  It appears to be relatively common to detect low levels of DNA from family members on a child’s underwear"

The study is called "DNA transfer during laundering may yield complete genetic profiles" it was published in the Forensic Science International May, 2016 edition.

yes but your recrd on the subject of forensics is not exactly good.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9933.0.html
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 07:48:PM by nugnug »

Offline marty

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1636 on: October 04, 2019, 07:43:PM »
Come on then smarty pants. Partially trained by whom?

No idea 😂😂😂 thats why i put " as far as i am aware" was only told an expert.

Offline David1819

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1637 on: October 04, 2019, 07:46:PM »
Theres what i said about the dog

No.

No, the dog was tested by an expert and said to bepartially trained

That's what you said about the dog.

Offline marty

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1638 on: October 04, 2019, 07:51:PM »
From reading Sandra and Corrine's posts on TapaTalk. It becomes apparent that the dog was not a trained tracking dog and no experts testified for the defence that the dog knew how to track a body as claimed.

Corrine claims it was too expensive for them to testify. Sandra imply's the defence didn't think it was important.

Take you pick.  ::)

Your doing my job for me mate
Corrine claims it was to exspensive for them to testify.
Who to testify about what?

Offline marty

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1639 on: October 04, 2019, 07:54:PM »
No.

That's what you said about the dog.

I did say that as well... well done

Offline marty

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1640 on: October 04, 2019, 07:58:PM »
Ah so Luke done it. And where did he gather the skills to partially train a dog to track. Google it? back in the 2002/3?
Thats a pathetic arguement mate and you know it. Nd like i said " as far as im aware" indicating i wasnt absoloutely 100% sure. But i did think that was the case

Offline sandra L

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1641 on: October 04, 2019, 08:21:PM »
Mia, Luke and Corinne were trained in tracking (not cadaver odour detection as was suggested in an earlier post) by an ex-army dog trainer with over 20 years' experience. His name has never been in the public domain, therefore I will not name him (just as I've never named the male family member said by John Ferris to have been in Alice Walker's house when, Ferris claimed, Alice and this other family member told Ferris not to go to the police).

The police knew who the trainer was and had already spoken extensively to him prior to Luke's Section 14 interrogation, since they made several references to him (the trainer) by name and to the techniques used in the tracker training process during that interrogation.

The written training records were taken by the police and made available to both the prosecution and the defence. The defence expert tested Mia against the information in the training records and wrote a report saying that the information was accurate - Mia had been trained to that standard. When the defence asked to bring the expert to court as a witness, a decision was taken that Legal Aid had already paid for the report, so the defence could cross examine the crown experts on the basis of the report, rather than incur the cost of having the expert attend personally to give evidence.

That's not unusual (and it certainly wasn't unusual in 2004/5) - defence teams are often refused funding to bring experts in at trial if they've already been funded to provide a report, on the basis that the defence has all the information it needs, from the report, to address any claims the prosecution might make. It's clearly a biased decision making process, since it requires lawyers to identify any failings in the prosecution experts' evidence (and often, these are couched in extremely technical language relevant only to that expert's discipline) and then figure out how to counter that with information from their own expert report.

An argument a few years ago, suggesting judges should become "gatekeepers" to ensure claims made by forensic experts were adequately supported by science, collapsed on the basis that judges are experts in law, not forensic science.

However, there's another question relating to the Yorkshire dogs (the ones brought in after the scene was bleached) that's never really been addressed. Why did the police bring in cadaver dogs, rather than tracker dogs, 12 days after the murder? Jodi's body was removed from the scene with 17 hours, at most, of her death. Had the dogs been following the "scent of death" (as it's been described in some articles), one would have expected all of them to have headed in the same direction - north, across the woodland strip to the barbed wire fence over which Jodi's body was passed to be placed in the ambulance on the morning of July 1st.

If they were searching out the scent of decomposing blood, deposited by "the killer," how would the dogs differentiate between blood transferred by officers who entered and left the scene in the early hours of the morning and blood deposited by the killer? What about anyone else in the woodland strip whose shoes may have (unknown to them) become contaminated with Jodi's blood - Alice Walker, who touched Jodi's body, James Falconer, David Dickie, the kids playing in the woodland strip, etc?

If Luke was the killer and left deposits of Jodi's blood in the direction of Newbattle earlier in the evening, he would also potentially have carried deposits of blood (or cadaver odour) in the opposite direction later that night, after the finding of Jodi's body, since he, like Alice and Steven Kelly, was over the wall. We know there were a number of places where traces of Jodi's blood were found - anyone walking in the area could have picked up those traces and transferred them elsewhere.

Any officer over the wall in the early hours who walked towards the Newbattle end of the path (to put up cordons etc) would also have carried cadaver odour in that direction - how would the dogs have known which was a deposit from a police officer and which was a deposit from a potential killer?

And, of course, all of this was based on the killer escaping towards Newbattle, for which there was, at the time, not a single credible piece of evidence. And the whole thing was rendered pointless by the bleaching of the scene before the dog got there.

But why cadaver dogs in the first place?

Offline Guiltyascharged

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1642 on: October 04, 2019, 08:26:PM »
What is pathetic, is you claiming Luke trained the dog, no point in mentioning any type of percent sure. You simply have no idea what so ever, you are going on the say so, of what the mother said. And she is bat shit crazy, so we can discount anything she comes out with.

Marty is very familar with everything the mother has said!

Offline WakeyWakey

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1643 on: October 04, 2019, 08:48:PM »
The police knew who the trainer was and had already spoken extensively to him prior to Luke's Section 14 interrogation, since they made several references to him (the trainer) by name and to the techniques used in the tracker training process during that interrogation.

The written training records were taken by the police and made available to both the prosecution and the defence. The defence expert tested Mia against the information in the training records and wrote a report saying that the information was accurate - Mia had been trained to that standard. When the defence asked to bring the expert to court as a witness, a decision was taken that Legal Aid had already paid for the report, so the defence could cross examine the crown experts on the basis of the report, rather than incur the cost of having the expert attend personally to give evidence.

it would have cost thm naff all to get that particular 'expert' in to give evidence. as sandra knws well, he simply a man who lived on the same street, who hasnt done anything profesionally for decades. except drink.

Offline sandra L

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1644 on: October 04, 2019, 09:23:PM »
I'm talking about the expert who was brought in (on Legal Aid) to test Mia's abilities in comparison to what the training logs stated, not the person who trained Mia, but I think you're fully aware of that.

Offline sandra L

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1645 on: October 04, 2019, 09:32:PM »
I have already pointed out that the scarcity of sperm heads rules out direct ejaculation on the fabric.

The sperm got there from the washing machine

"A recent study by Canadian researchers demonstrated that sperm cells could be transferred from semen stained bedding to clean underwear during washing in a machine.  Identifiable male DNA profiles were obtained.  The same group also looked at the transfer of female vaginal material in the wash and the background levels of DNA and semen present on underwear from children.  It appears to be relatively common to detect low levels of DNA from family members on a child’s underwear"

The study is called "DNA transfer during laundering may yield complete genetic profiles" it was published in the Forensic Science International May, 2016 edition.

OK, so you're saying the number of sperm heads indicates there was no direct ejaculation onto the fabric and the abstract of a study to support your theory that the DNA found on Jodi's clothing got there by washing machine transfer. Did you read the whole article? Here, let me help.

Quote
The inclusion of unstained socks in washes with semen-stained clothing provides preliminary data of secondary transfer of DNA from the stained items of clothing to unstained items. Complete DNA profiles matching that of the semen donor were found on the majority of the socks (Table 3). This finding supports the recent presentation by Noël et al. [15] who found that interpretable male DNA profiles could be obtained from pristine panties that had been washed with a bed-sheet stained with semen. However, further work is required to investigate whether the sperm cells themselves are being transferred or whether just the DNA from the sperm cells is transferred. The additional finding of alleles that could have come from the regular user of the washing machine on two of the socks washed at 60 °C suggests that DNA has also been transferred to the socks from the washing machine. This supports the concept of transfer of ‘wearer DNA’ between items of clothing in a washing machine, which had previously been proposed by Stouder et al. [16], but has yet to be demonstrated empirically. Further research is required to establish whether the nature of the semen staining (for example, whether the stain is visible or whether sperm cells are identified, and if so, the number of those cells) or the quantity of DNA obtained from the stain post-washing could be used to suggest whether the staining is as a result of primary deposition or secondary transfer within the washing machine. Depending on the case circumstances, such research, including this initial study, will assist forensic scientists in evaluating the findings of DNA from semen-stained clothing.
https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(15)30050-8/fulltext#sec0055

This article was first published in November 2015 – almost 12 ½ years after Jodi was murdered. Notice how much research still has to be done to ascertain how, or in what circumstances, DNA is transferred in a washing machine.

This article also states

Quote
In casework, there are essentially three ways to screen an item for the possible presence of semen prior to potentially preparing samples for microscopic analysis: a visual examination for appropriate-looking stains, an examination with an alternate light source, and presumptive testing, such as Acid Phosphatase (AP) testing. Under the specific conditions of this study, the semen staining was still visible even after multiple washes, suggesting that visible screening might assist scientists to identify possible semen staining on washed clothing. However, further research is required to see whether the staining would still be visible under different conditions. With respect to AP testing, previous research has consistently shown that semen-stained items of clothing laundered with detergent does not give a positive AP reaction [6, 7, 8, 9], so AP testing would not be appropriate when examining clothing washed after the deposition of semen. The use of an alternate light source to identify semen stains on washed clothing has yet to be considered and research into its use under such conditions would be useful to help inform the best way to screen such items for semen.

So, semen stained clothing laundered with detergent does not give a positive AP reaction. How did the police, in 2003, identify “semen staining” specifically, on Jodi’s clothing? As far as I’ve been able to ascertain, the only test available to them at the time that would allow them to identify and label a stain as “semen” was the AP test. But if semen is not detectable by AP testing after laundering……..??

Offline marty

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1646 on: October 04, 2019, 09:43:PM »
What is pathetic, is you claiming Luke trained the dog, no point in mentioning any type of percent sure. You simply have no idea what so ever, you are going on the say so, of what the mother said. And she is bat shit crazy, so we can discount anything she comes out with.

The reason i say it was possible for luke to train the dog comes from personal exspierience . When i was 13 we got a dog which i trained to find golf balls of all things. I sold these to my golfing mates at school. On the same principal i trained a jack russell to find cash ( notes) later in life. That backfired however as my wife used the dog to find my stash that i had hidden for a mates stag doo. Thats why i agreed with lookout it was jodis clothes the dog may have smelled instead of blood as i think i could train a dog for the scent of clothes and im no expert. Thats why its more than possible imo for luke to do the same. However he never trained the dog so fuck it, it doesnt matter anyway.
Cheers

Offline David1819

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1647 on: October 04, 2019, 09:44:PM »
I have been reading this article and it describes exactly the same thing as Jodi's clothes. Similar numbers of sperm heads.


"Moreover, our studies with control families showed that DNA corresponding to other household members was found in most children’s underwear as well. Kafarowski counted up to eight sperm cells in each sample (1cm2) excised from pristine items of clothing that were washed with a single pair of semen stained female underwear. "


"DNA from sperm cells however, has been found to persist after a machine wash in water temperatures of 60ºC"


Offline David1819

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1648 on: October 04, 2019, 10:01:PM »

So, semen stained clothing laundered with detergent does not give a positive AP reaction. How did the police, in 2003, identify “semen staining” specifically, on Jodi’s clothing? As far as I’ve been able to ascertain, the only test available to them at the time that would allow them to identify and label a stain as “semen” was the AP test. But if semen is not detectable by AP testing after laundering……..??


Look in the case material you have access to.

Offline sandra L

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1649 on: October 04, 2019, 10:02:PM »
So, semen stained clothing laundered with detergent does not give a positive AP reaction. How did the police, in 2003, identify “semen staining” specifically, on Jodi’s clothing? As far as I’ve been able to ascertain, the only test available to them at the time that would allow them to identify and label a stain as “semen” was the AP test. But if semen is not detectable by AP testing after laundering……..??

I'm talking specifically about the stains labelled "semen" - not the samples labelled "sperm heads" - there were both, remember?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 10:04:PM by sandra L »