Author Topic: Video re photographs non-disclosure  (Read 94559 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #630 on: December 29, 2019, 09:44:PM »
i haven’t watched the youtube as on phone but are you saying someone else took photos and that they hadn’t done thier job properly?

No, its not the photographer that's the problem. Its the fact that the photo films have been cut and negatives are missing.


The Kodacolor strips come in sets of 12. The red hashes below are what's missing.

############ Kitchen + Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Landing + Twins Room
############ Twins Room
############ Upstairs rooms
############ Living Room
############ CloakRoom + BackDoor
############ Kitchen + Backdoor
############ Gun Cupboard and Office 
############ Gun Cupboard and Office
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Stairs + Bedrooms
############ Sheila's room + Stairs
############ Exterior Windows 
############ Exterior Windows
############ Exterior House
############ Exterior House
############ Missing
############ Farmland
############ Cars
############ Farmland
############ Garden and Settee + 2X PM
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 09:48:PM by David1819 »

Offline Jane

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #631 on: December 29, 2019, 09:44:PM »
sorry jane i’m not really buying that. he’d done one other major crime and if he wasn’t up to the job why do you think they put him on it. i think he should have been perfectly competent


From where do you imagine they were going to conjure up another at that time of the morning? I don't imagine police photographers are ten a penny. You note that he "should" have been perfectly competent. At any other time, at any other SOC, you're probably right, but this was a SOC like no other.

Offline sami

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #632 on: December 29, 2019, 09:47:PM »

From where do you imagine they were going to conjure up another at that time of the morning? I don't imagine police photographers are ten a penny. You note that he "should" have been perfectly competent. At any other time, at any other SOC, you're probably right, but this was a SOC like no other.
probably never been to one like it for the rest of his career

Offline Jan

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #633 on: December 30, 2019, 02:49:PM »
No, its not the photographer that's the problem. Its the fact that the photo films have been cut and negatives are missing.


The Kodacolor strips come in sets of 12. The red hashes below are what's missing.

############ Kitchen + Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Landing + Twins Room
############ Twins Room
############ Upstairs rooms
############ Living Room
############ CloakRoom + BackDoor
############ Kitchen + Backdoor
############ Gun Cupboard and Office 
############ Gun Cupboard and Office
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Stairs + Bedrooms
############ Sheila's room + Stairs
############ Exterior Windows 
############ Exterior Windows
############ Exterior House
############ Exterior House
############ Missing
############ Farmland
############ Cars
############ Farmland
############ Garden and Settee + 2X PM

you would think that every photo would have been relevant ? And if photos were missing there should have been a statement why ?

I think ( may be wrong) that the photographer was asked about this in court ?

Offline sami

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #634 on: December 30, 2019, 03:25:PM »
you would think that every photo would have been relevant ? And if photos were missing there should have been a statement why ?

I think ( may be wrong) that the photographer was asked about this in court ?
no excuses for the missing photos,other then computers were not about as we have them today,store millions of stuff on a sd card no bigger than a stamp

Offline lookout

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #635 on: December 30, 2019, 03:39:PM »
Information was kept on micro-fiches back then because we had those at the hospital with a patients information on them which was all transferred when we went computerised in 1990. What a job !!

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #636 on: December 30, 2019, 04:43:PM »
No, its not the photographer that's the problem. Its the fact that the photo films have been cut and negatives are missing.


The Kodacolor strips come in sets of 12. The red hashes below are what's missing.

############ Kitchen + Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Main Bedroom
############ Landing + Twins Room
############ Twins Room
############ Upstairs rooms
############ Living Room
############ CloakRoom + BackDoor
############ Kitchen + Backdoor
############ Gun Cupboard and Office 
############ Gun Cupboard and Office
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Windows
############ Stairs + Bedrooms
############ Sheila's room + Stairs
############ Exterior Windows 
############ Exterior Windows
############ Exterior House
############ Exterior House
############ Missing
############ Farmland
############ Cars
############ Farmland
############ Garden and Settee + 2X PM
I'm sure we'd all agree that it is best if the graphic fatal injuries to the twins are not shown. The question remains as to what from the master bundle has been concealed, if in fact some have.

Offline Jan

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #637 on: December 30, 2019, 05:04:PM »
I'm sure we'd all agree that it is best if the graphic fatal injuries to the twins are not shown. The question remains as to what from the master bundle has been concealed, if in fact some have.

gun cupboard missing ones are interesting . And there is a difference between being withheld and missing .

Offline lookout

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #638 on: December 30, 2019, 05:12:PM »
Mike always said that the master bundle never saw daylight.

Offline Jane

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #639 on: December 30, 2019, 05:26:PM »
Mike always said that the master bundle never saw daylight.


 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Offline Jan

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #640 on: December 30, 2019, 06:15:PM »
Mike always said that the master bundle never saw daylight.

I think the important bit is whether the defence saw all the photos - what is used in court is up to the prosecution and defence. But there should be full disclosure to the defence - the police should not pick and chose what they see.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #641 on: December 30, 2019, 06:16:PM »
I think the important bit is whether the defence saw all the photos - what is used in court is up to the prosecution and defence. But there should be full disclosure to the defence - the police should not pick and chose what they see.

I agree.

Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #642 on: January 01, 2020, 04:09:AM »
There is indeed. I have now received a reply from CAL in respect to PC Bird and his experience as a scenes of crime photographer. The Bamber case was indeed only the second major incident he had attended after having taken the Scenes of Crime course when he joined Chelmsford. I have sent the proof of contact to NGB but have copied her response below,

"Dave Bird; he joined the police in 1976 (Canvey Island) but it wasn’t until he joined the Chelmsford lot that he decided to specialise in crime scene photography and took the required course. Bamber was his second major assignment in that capacity".
   After nearly a year and a half this response is even worse than I predicted. It is abundantly clear that the poor state of the photographic record is because of EP malfeasance. It is the tampering with and withholding of this photographic evidence that is the issue at hand. The lack of experience of Bird was just some nonsense put forward by you in order to divert from the main issues of misconduct by the prosecution.
    This latest attempt to insert the, "Bird was inexperienced" canard demonstrates even more clearly than ever that it has zero basis in fact. CAL and her publisher can't even agree on PC Bird's experience or lack of. According to CAL it was only Bird's second time acting as crime scene photographer. According to the publisher, it was Bird's second major assignment (his first major assignment being the Coggeshall murder some four months previously). Both CAL and the publisher hedged their statements by claiming it was his second job/major assignment since either "starting work on the lab treatments", (CAL) or after  joining the Chelmsford lot and specialising in crime scene photography.
    As an aside here it is worth pointing out that you spent quite some time arguing that Bird was not a specialist. You claimed that the COLP interview showed this by posting out of context quotes and also stated that Bird himself did not claim to be a specialist. When I posted the full COLP interview and it was clear that Bird was referred to throughout the interview by himself and the interviewer(Supt. Mckay) numerous times as a specialist crime scene photographer you fell back on "Bird's interview" in the CAL book to "prove" he wasn't a specialist.
    Needless to say this interview turned out to be nothing of the sort and in fact was some badly paraphrased claim made on Bird's behalf by CAL. Basically, a worthless piece of hearsay. You even spent pages arguing ridiculously that CAL's words weren't hearsay. Only when NGB intervened at your request did you agree what everybody else already knew but then tried to sweeten the pill of being wrong by convincing yourself that hearsay has a different meaning in English Law than it does in the English language(it doesn't by the way, obviously). It is now clear that CAL and her publisher cannot even agree on the details themselves. However the publisher now agrees that Bird was a specialist.
    I said earlier in the thread when this issue arose that CAL's publisher would, if replying at all, only confirm CAL's words rather than clear up the question of how many times Bird had acted as photographer. I myself wrote, as you know, but got no reply and left it as unimportant. You have obviously prompted for a reply desperate to be proven right and fail to comprehend that it weakens rather than strengthens your case.
    Your question to the publisher posted earlier in the thread, similarly to my own question, made this distinction clear. How many times has Bird acted as a police photographer? Not since some arbitrary event occurred, Just, quite simply, how many times has Bird acted as police photographer? 
    Neither of them have clarified the question asked and in fact have muddied the waters even further leading to the obvious conclusion that Bird had way more experience than they are attempting to imply.
    The publisher has in fact backed off from claiming that it was only Bird's second assignment since arbitrary event A as a photographer which was CAL's claim. The publisher claims a different arbitrary event, B, to avoid the direct question and now adds "major" to the claim, leaving the obvious possibility of an untold number of non major incidents that Bird has previously worked on. It's not even hearsay now, it's just gossip and chinese whispers and this is the entirety of your evidence to show Bird's inexperience.
     I would suggest that the COLP interview(transcript not hearsay) and the court transcript of PC Bird's evidence(again transcript earlier in this thread) along with the commonly agreed fact that EP malfeasance with the photographic record has been ongoing for years are stronger evidence of Bird's professionalism than your hearsay from CAL which only appears to claim otherwise by making equivocal statements which are not even confirmed by her own publisher.
     

Offline JackieD

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #643 on: January 01, 2020, 09:42:AM »
Thank you Gringo for such a detailed reply. As expected another author trying to make money out of a miscarriage of justice case. Cal should be ashamed of herself and it begs the question why on earth would Colin get involved in this further attempt to cover up the truth. I will be interested what NGB says about this post or if he comments as I would like to hear a legal point of view.
Interestingly Stephen Grahame on Graham Norton last night he had to be careful what he said as this was an ongoing investigation so at least the programme makers accept this and are probably now worried how they stand legally. I bet that wetted the appetite of a lot of viewers watching last night. Maybe one authors lust for making money might lead to the truth being exposed. Public opinion is everything
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Jan

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #644 on: January 01, 2020, 10:18:AM »
Thank you Gringo for such a detailed reply. As expected another author trying to make money out of a miscarriage of justice case. Cal should be ashamed of herself and it begs the question why on earth would Colin get involved in this further attempt to cover up the truth. I will be interested what NGB says about this post or if he comments as I would like to hear a legal point of view.
Interestingly Stephen Grahame on Graham Norton last night he had to be careful what he said as this was an ongoing investigation so at least the programme makers accept this and are probably now worried how they stand legally. I bet that wetted the appetite of a lot of viewers watching last night. Maybe one authors lust for making money might lead to the truth being exposed. Public opinion is everything


Sorry I have to disagree with one thing . The makers of the programme won’t have any worries . It is advertised as a drama  not a documentary so it won’t really matter what they say or do . They have given themselves artistic licence. And I think we have to respect Colin’s reasons for being involved . He says he wants the emotional effect of the crime to be known from his point of view. And his perspective is his perspective. He went through an awful time that none of us can really imagine .