Author Topic: Viva Les Differences  (Read 12719 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 04:10:PM »




Indeed I've learned a lot as I've gone along particularly of the implications and problems that non-disclosure of evidence brings as to me personally the case is never finalised or ever will be without the full details.
While we all know how to " prosecute " often done when there's a clash of personalities to throw in the mix but when it comes to defence there's a complete barrier because deep down nobody likes a winner so to deter from this happening certain testimonies as well as statements are withheld so as not to show that person in a true light because it wouldn't look good.

This is not the way to operate by any means but in this case people went all out to convict even barring that which should have lent itself to a fair trial namely unedited/unaltered draft statements which should have been typed up as was. Instead there were series of crossed-out and over-written papers in which to copy as wasn't originally written showing that all wasn't as it seemed.


Why after all these years has it been decided to further look into this case if everyone didn't think there'd been anything untoward in October 1986 ?


I do have a problem with this alleged non disclosure. I watch the suggestion of such being drip fed to supporters in a "Let's rally the troops" way.

What, exactly HASN'T been disclosed? I'm convinced that each supporter is likely to be certain that it's their particular pet piece of allegedly withheld information which will be responsible for Jeremy's release, but what constitutes full disclosure for one, will probably have no interest for another. It also needs to be realized that there COULD be information which is of no interest to anyone -other than those who want to know for knowing's sake- be it judiciary or jury and wouldn't have made a scrap of difference to the outcome of the trial, other than to lengthen it. There is NO concrete proof of what HASN'T been revealed. Thus far, it's all been suggestion.

There have been too many high profile cases to mention in which it's come to light that information HAS been withheld. These cases, in the main have involved huge swathes of public bodies. The reasons for them wanting to keep things under wraps have become obvious. The Bamber case was not one of them. It was big in Essex for a long time. The lead characters all ripe for having their story told. Police HAD a culprit. The murdered father allegedly phoning his son to say his mentally ill daughter had gone mad and got hold of a gun. The son phones police and fills in the missing details such as he gun competency. Police break in to find the whole family dead. End of. There was never any necessity for them to back pedal or hide things under wraps. Now what we have are increasingly ugly, sick, and grotesque claims being made to convince us that such is the case.

Every prisoner has the right to appeal. That Jeremy won't let it go is his right. It's all being funded by private donation. Those involved in carrying out tests are simply being paid for their time and expertise. It has nothing to do with a particular official body or agency deciding to "look into it". Such, to the best of my knowledge, would have to come from higher office.

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2018, 04:19:PM »




Indeed I've learned a lot as I've gone along particularly of the implications and problems that non-disclosure of evidence brings as to me personally the case is never finalised or ever will be without the full details.
While we all know how to " prosecute " often done when there's a clash of personalities to throw in the mix but when it comes to defence there's a complete barrier because deep down nobody likes a winner so to deter from this happening certain testimonies as well as statements are withheld so as not to show that person in a true light because it wouldn't look good.

This is not the way to operate by any means but in this case people went all out to convict even barring that which should have lent itself to a fair trial namely unedited/unaltered draft statements which should have been typed up as was. Instead there were series of crossed-out and over-written papers in which to copy as wasn't originally written showing that all wasn't as it seemed.


Why after all these years has it been decided to further look into this case if everyone didn't think there'd been anything untoward in October 1986 ?

I guess that's a point you can make, however a good counter point to that is why have so many people who have worked on his case previously - walked away.

Offline lookout

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2018, 06:13:PM »

I do have a problem with this alleged non disclosure. I watch the suggestion of such being drip fed to supporters in a "Let's rally the troops" way.

What, exactly HASN'T been disclosed? I'm convinced that each supporter is likely to be certain that it's their particular pet piece of allegedly withheld information which will be responsible for Jeremy's release, but what constitutes full disclosure for one, will probably have no interest for another. It also needs to be realized that there COULD be information which is of no interest to anyone -other than those who want to know for knowing's sake- be it judiciary or jury and wouldn't have made a scrap of difference to the outcome of the trial, other than to lengthen it. There is NO concrete proof of what HASN'T been revealed. Thus far, it's all been suggestion.

There have been too many high profile cases to mention in which it's come to light that information HAS been withheld. These cases, in the main have involved huge swathes of public bodies. The reasons for them wanting to keep things under wraps have become obvious. The Bamber case was not one of them. It was big in Essex for a long time. The lead characters all ripe for having their story told. Police HAD a culprit. The murdered father allegedly phoning his son to say his mentally ill daughter had gone mad and got hold of a gun. The son phones police and fills in the missing details such as he gun competency. Police break in to find the whole family dead. End of. There was never any necessity for them to back pedal or hide things under wraps. Now what we have are increasingly ugly, sick, and grotesque claims being made to convince us that such is the case.

Every prisoner has the right to appeal. That Jeremy won't let it go is his right. It's all being funded by private donation. Those involved in carrying out tests are simply being paid for their time and expertise. It has nothing to do with a particular official body or agency deciding to "look into it". Such, to the best of my knowledge, would have to come from higher office.






It's not about the paperwork etc that we've seen in this case but that which we haven't seen.

For instance we haven't seen all the rooms in the farmhouse which we know to have been photographed. Or as I've mentioned, the original drafts/handwritten logs before they were cobbled along with GP/Psychiatric notes etc------all as you must agree seems strange considering they're all part of the case. What we have really are the bones but no flesh which is why we keep going round in circles.

Okay, so if there was no reason in hanging on to old material then why don't EP have the good manners to say so after having ignored requests and court orders ? It's easy enough to answer. The more they're ignoring everyone the more suspicion grows as to why they won't release these documents , it's a fact.

By all means if you disagree about anything being withheld then contact the legal team and tell them that they're wasting their time because if my thoughts were as strong as yours it's something that I'd be doing because I hate seeing folk conned. It really is one of my pet hates as it riles me.   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2018, 06:23:PM »
I guess that's a point you can make, however a good counter point to that is why have so many people who have worked on his case previously - walked away.
..or been sacked or ostracized by Jeremy Bamber.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 06:23:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jane

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2018, 06:42:PM »





It's not about the paperwork etc that we've seen in this case but that which we haven't seen.

For instance we haven't seen all the rooms in the farmhouse which we know to have been photographed. Or as I've mentioned, the original drafts/handwritten logs before they were cobbled along with GP/Psychiatric notes etc------all as you must agree seems strange considering they're all part of the case. What we have really are the bones but no flesh which is why we keep going round in circles.

Okay, so if there was no reason in hanging on to old material then why don't EP have the good manners to say so after having ignored requests and court orders ? It's easy enough to answer. The more they're ignoring everyone the more suspicion grows as to why they won't release these documents , it's a fact.

By all means if you disagree about anything being withheld then contact the legal team and tell them that they're wasting their time because if my thoughts were as strong as yours it's something that I'd be doing because I hate seeing folk conned. It really is one of my pet hates as it riles me.


But how can anyone possibly say that stuff actually exists that they haven't seen? That sounds very much like a branch to cling to.

Have you never considered that showing all the rooms in WHF which were photographed might have served no purpose, other than to give people an idea of how it was decorated? As Sheila was never on trial, I can't see how divulging her psych history -other than that which already has been and was deemed relevant- would be helpful, however, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so a trade COULD be made with Jeremy's psych reports, which I believe he's so far refused.

I have no idea why there's this current impasse but it occurs to me that A) such material no longer exists -I mean WHY would incriminating stuff be kept? B) maybe the request hasn't been ignored and EP have actually responded to the request but it serves a better purpose not to reveal that.

You clearly set the legal team on a far higher pedestal than do I. I believe this country's legal profession is as good as it gets bar none. I DON'T believe they're altruistic. The don't practice sentiment. They deal with facts and reason. They're certainly NOT wasting time. They won't allow themselves to be conned, and I'm willing to put money on YOU having much greater belief and being far more loyal to Jeremy being innocent than all of them put together. It won't do damage to any of their careers when another appeal get turned down. It's something barristers have to learn to live with. They take it in their stride. Jeremy's freedom might be personal to you. To them, it's just another job.

Offline David1819

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 07:14:PM »

But how can anyone possibly say that stuff actually exists that they haven't seen? That sounds very much like a branch to cling to.



We know things exist because they are documented.

For example - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2689.msg87045.html#msg87045

Offline Jane

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2018, 07:17:PM »

We know things exist because they are documented.

For example - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2689.msg87045.html#msg87045


Dated 16 years ago. Jeremy has said, far more recently, that he now has everything he needs.

Offline lookout

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 07:31:PM »

But how can anyone possibly say that stuff actually exists that they haven't seen? That sounds very much like a branch to cling to.

Have you never considered that showing all the rooms in WHF which were photographed might have served no purpose, other than to give people an idea of how it was decorated? As Sheila was never on trial, I can't see how divulging her psych history -other than that which already has been and was deemed relevant- would be helpful, however, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so a trade COULD be made with Jeremy's psych reports, which I believe he's so far refused.

I have no idea why there's this current impasse but it occurs to me that A) such material no longer exists -I mean WHY would incriminating stuff be kept? B) maybe the request hasn't been ignored and EP have actually responded to the request but it serves a better purpose not to reveal that.

You clearly set the legal team on a far higher pedestal than do I. I believe this country's legal profession is as good as it gets bar none. I DON'T believe they're altruistic. The don't practice sentiment. They deal with facts and reason. They're certainly NOT wasting time. They won't allow themselves to be conned, and I'm willing to put money on YOU having much greater belief and being far more loyal to Jeremy being innocent than all of them put together. It won't do damage to any of their careers when another appeal get turned down. It's something barristers have to learn to live with. They take it in their stride. Jeremy's freedom might be personal to you. To them, it's just another job.







" Just another job " in righting all the wrongs from a previous trial will probably be the biggest job they will ever encounter. They're going over myriads of documents that constituted one of the biggest murder trials of its day and to me that's some feat. Doesn't it beg the question as to why it was necessary in bothering doing this ? What it tells me is that there had to be something radically wrong in the first place to even consider going over someone else's work ? Not that half those involved will be bothered since they're deceased but there are one or two who are still breathing and one who contacts the CT team. I do hold the legal team in high regard as they're trained and clever people so why wouldn't I ? I respect anyone with brains.

Since we've discussed the bathroom and office, we haven't seen these areas to get any further ideas since both places have been regularly mentioned. Also the room where the toy gun was found. I've got no desire to see furnishings/décor etc just the layout of the place  in picture form to get more of an idea of things that were mentioned as a full picture would have been more interesting.
 Did we ever see a pic of the broken light/lamp ?

As for Sheila's records and because she's no longer alive EP should be obliged to hand them over. With Jeremy it's different because he's living. I doubt his contain anything more than a UTI or similar which he obviously wouldn't want broadcast and by this I'm going by what JM had said in her " January " page of her diary.

It wouldn't be in the interest of EP to have burned anything incriminating because they must have known for a long time that the case has been on-going and that past solicitors/lawyers have certain material which matches up along with the realisation that there are " gaps " in some of the work. These " gaps " are what's missing which EP will have known that the legals were aware of and if anything was destroyed it would highlight the guilt of EP. ( difficult to explain but I know what I mean ) 

Offline David1819

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 07:33:PM »

We know things exist because they are documented.

For example - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2689.msg87045.html#msg87045


There is no point guessing what this evidence is. Its easy to come up with a theory and just hope/guess that the evidence to prove your theory is within what ever is withheld. But thats not a reliable method of solving anything.

Offline lookout

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 07:42:PM »
I'm not guessing, just saying that there are documents missing/withheld. Nobody can know the contents if they're under lock and key. 

Offline Caroline

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2018, 07:56:PM »

We know things exist because they are documented.

For example - http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2689.msg87045.html#msg87045

That document is from 2002 and Jeremy told me he now has most of the PII stuff, he told CAL the same thing.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2018, 07:58:PM »
I'm not guessing, just saying that there are documents missing/withheld. Nobody can know the contents if they're under lock and key.

What about Sheila's diaries? What do you imagine they will tell us?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline David1819

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2018, 08:08:PM »
That document is from 2002 and Jeremy told me he now has most of the PII stuff, he told CAL the same thing.


Most is not all.

Offline David1819

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2018, 08:09:PM »
What about Sheila's diaries? What do you imagine they will tell us?


Sheila's diaries were destroyed.

Offline Jane

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Re: Viva Les Differences
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2018, 08:17:PM »






" Just another job " in righting all the wrongs from a previous trial will probably be the biggest job they will ever encounter. They're going over myriads of documents that constituted one of the biggest murder trials of its day and to me that's some feat. Doesn't it beg the question as to why it was necessary in bothering doing this ? What it tells me is that there had to be something radically wrong in the first place to even consider going over someone else's work ? Not that half those involved will be bothered since they're deceased but there are one or two who are still breathing and one who contacts the CT team. I do hold the legal team in high regard as they're trained and clever people so why wouldn't I ? I respect anyone with brains.

Since we've discussed the bathroom and office, we haven't seen these areas to get any further ideas since both places have been regularly mentioned. Also the room where the toy gun was found. I've got no desire to see furnishings/décor etc just the layout of the place  in picture form to get more of an idea of things that were mentioned as a full picture would have been more interesting.
 Did we ever see a pic of the broken light/lamp ?

As for Sheila's records and because she's no longer alive EP should be obliged to hand them over. With Jeremy it's different because he's living. I doubt his contain anything more than a UTI or similar which he obviously wouldn't want broadcast and by this I'm going by what JM had said in her " January " page of her diary.

It wouldn't be in the interest of EP to have burned anything incriminating because they must have known for a long time that the case has been on-going and that past solicitors/lawyers have certain material which matches up along with the realisation that there are " gaps " in some of the work. These " gaps " are what's missing which EP will have known that the legals were aware of and if anything was destroyed it would highlight the guilt of EP. ( difficult to explain but I know what I mean )


"Righting all the wrongs" does rather smack of the mass conspiracy that Adam is so fond of mentioning. It's also one of the main reasons that the whole "Jeremy is innocent" claim has become unbelievable. It's grown both legs AND wings. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that, many of the suggestions put forward as fact, almost makes your gut feeling sound reasoned!!!

The legal team are unlikely to be doing more than previous legal teams have done in this, and other cases. Whilst it maybe laborious work, it won't require brainpower above and beyond what they're trained for. When it comes to "something being radically wrong", this will be their client's view. They take instructions from the client. I fully see why you seem to hold them in higher regard than any other body you've ever mentioned, but really, they're no MORE "trained and clever" than professionals in other disciplines.

There does seem to be a certain desperation behind the desire to see a room in which a toy gun was found. I don't know if there are pictures of the broken light. I MAY have seen a naked light bulb suspended from the ceiling but I can't swear to it. It does appear to me that we have pictures of all the rooms that the crime was acted out in.

If Sheila had been on trial, I'd have concurred with you about her records, but to demand them now would be tantamount to saying she was under suspicion. Jeremy, as a convicted prisoner has no fear of suspicion falling on him. One can only think there MAY be something which might further incriminate him.

Re the reasons you believe EP have for holding onto evidence. Once it's gone, it's gone, whether it be lost, mislaid or destroyed. Seems to me that they're in a position of being damned if they do and damned if they don't. I remain convinced that had there been SERIOUS attempts to recover what they're still said to be holding, it COULD have been recovered. There remains the strong possibility that, as Jeremy has said, he now has everything he needs, but as it hasn't proved to yield what he'd hoped for, he's not admitting it?