Author Topic: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber  (Read 1551 times)

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Luminous Wanderer

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The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« on: April 13, 2018, 04:00:AM »
This is another 'policy' thread, for anybody interested, and is not specifically about the case but a wider issue.

When it comes to criminal justice and penal issues, I am a liberal - but in the old-fashioned sense of the term.  I believe in harsh punishments, but I also believe in strongly upholding due process.  I believe the courts should have the option of imposing the death penalty, and in my own view, the just punishment for pre-meditated murder is death.  I regard that as an imperative. 

In this regard, I think an interesting question arises in the case of Jeremy Bamber (I realise this is hypothetical):

In a capital murder system, would Jeremy have been found guilty by a jury?

In attempting to answer that question, I won't take sides over his actual culpability, but would offer this observation:

This is a case in which a logical and plausible competing factual matrix is available that explains the same killings with a different culprit who was already inside the farmhouse and who did not need a rational motive.

I also note there is no direct forensic evidence of Jeremy's involvement, that the police bungled the crime scene, and much of the Crown's evidence was irrelevant: Julie Mugford being a case in point, but arguably even the moderator falls into the 'irrelevant' category, which is quite apart from the question of its dubious provenance as a piece of evidence and the potential for innocent contamination.  There are other points we can make, such as the over-rationalised criminal motive ascribed to Jeremy.  While the question of motive isn't probative, we can observe that Jeremy had at least equally-strong motives not to kill anybody.

Taking all that into account, I would question whether a capital jury would have convicted Jeremy, and I present that hypothetical question for consideration by both camps.  Whether you are pro- or anti-Bamber, the flaws in the police investigation and the Crown's case are evident.

Those of you oppose or disagree with the death penalty might wish to reflect on this, and also reflect on the fact that Jeremy was sent down on a majority verdict, a result of abandoning an important legal protection against mob justice that goes to the heart of a rational jury system. 

I favour serious punishments and serious juries, with proper evidence and unanimous verdicts.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:03:AM by Luminous Wanderer »

Offline lookout

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 09:34:AM »
I have always held the view that the death penalty should have remained in place.

The last vote when Mrs Thatcher was in power was about 73% FOR,though she herself was against CP it's what most of the public wanted,but the public no longer matter do they ??
I couldn't even begin to count the number of murders that have occurred in just the past 10 years alone,let alone since CP was abolished in the 60's.

Do these murderers deserve to live ? Ask JB's relatives and they will give you a straight and honest answer.

Would JM have acted differently if she'd have known that JB was going to the gallows ??

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 04:48:PM »
Would JM have acted differently if she'd have known that JB was going to the gallows ??

That is a good point.  It might have made her think twice.

Offline frankie

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 09:00:AM »
Albert Pierrepoint said that from his observations of the condemned, he believed that capital punishment was not a deterrent. I do wonder if its just an easy way out for some societies and that long years of incarceration are more punishing? As to whether or not JM would have acted differently, maybe? I think she's got JB just where she wants him ie locked away not able to access any other woman and hopefully in her mind thinking about her every day.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 12:33:PM »
The death penalty has its benefits in one sense, but could have adverse affects regarding the way in which criminals go about, and carry out their crimes! Imagine a criminal knowing that as a result of his own actions he could be led to the gallows, and ordinarily he might not think twice about a witness who observes the crime he has committed, but with the death penalty a live issue, the criminal might think seriously about nullifying that problem! Basically, it could work adversely, paving the way for even more horrific offending by the active criminal...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 12:44:PM »
The death penalty has its benefits in one sense, but could have adverse affects regarding the way in which criminals go about, and carry out their crimes! Imagine a criminal knowing that as a result of his own actions he could be led to the gallows, and ordinarily he might not think twice about a witness who observes the crime he has committed, but with the death penalty a live issue, the criminal might think seriously about nullifying that problem! Basically, it could work adversely, paving the way for even more horrific offending by the active criminal...

Not to mention, the risks involved in miscarriages of justice!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2018, 01:02:PM »
Not to mention, the risks involved in miscarriages of justice!

Take as a prime example, the case of Derek Bentley!

(1) - http://www.derekbentley.com/

All sorts of complications might come into play, resulting in the wrong person being hanged!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline David1819

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2018, 01:05:PM »
As to whether or not JM would have acted differently, maybe? I think she's got JB just where she wants him ie locked away not able to access any other woman and hopefully in her mind thinking about her every day.

You can run, but you can't hide. Time won't help you. Karma has no deadline.   ;)

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 01:11:PM »
Whether or not, a person might go to the gallows, could rest upon a different interpretation of words spoken by someone at the time of the crime!

We all now know that when Derek Bentley called out to his accomplice, Christopher Craig, ' let him have it', that he meant for Craig to let the policeman have the gun!! However, in Craig's mind, he could have been influenced by the possibility that if he tried to escape from a somewhat awfully predicament that he found himself in, and that if he shot the policeman to save his accomplice (Derek Bentley) from the gallows and the policeman had survived, that he (Bentley) might be sent to the gallows, in any event, and so acting on a mistaken understanding Craig may have literally intended to kill the policeman who died up there on the roof..
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:12:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline nugnug

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2018, 01:14:PM »
i think a conviction would of been less likely but not out of the qustion

we might just be debating weather it was a wrongull excution rather than a wrongfull conviction.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:15:PM by nugnug »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2018, 01:15:PM »
Whether or not, a person might go to the gallows, could rest upon a different interpretation of words spoken by someone at the time of the crime!

We all now know that when Derek Bentley called out to his accomplice, Christopher Craig, ' let him have it', that he meant for Craig to let the policeman have the gun!! However, in Craig's mind, he could have been influenced by the possibility that if he tried to escape from a somewhat awfully predicament that he found himself in, and that if he shot the policeman to save his accomplice (Derek Bentley) from the gallows and the policeman had survived, that he (Bentley) might be sent to the gallows, in any event, and so acting on a mistaken understanding Craig may have literally intended to kill the policeman who died up there on the roof..

All because the death penalty was available to any judge passing sentence in the most serious cases!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 01:17:PM »
It is supposedly much better that 10 guilty felons should go free, than one innocent man or woman be convicted for offences they did not commit!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:17:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline nugnug

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 01:17:PM »
the death penalty was mandotary in the uk the judge had no chioce.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 01:19:PM »
the death penalty was mandotary in the uk the judge had no chioce.

Yes, I know, but sometimes the wrong person might have got hanged, or in Derek Bentley's case, he was wrongly hanged, and the person responsible was too young to be hanged, adding to the injustice!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline nugnug

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Re: The Death Penalty and Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2018, 01:29:PM »
Yes, I know, but sometimes the wrong person might have got hanged, or in Derek Bentley's case, he was wrongly hanged, and the person responsible was too young to be hanged, adding to the injustice!

in bentleys case the judge actully made a plea for the sentence not to be carried out but his plea was ignored along the plea from the jury i doubt if the jury would of convicted if they knew the sentence would be carried out.