Author Topic: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy  (Read 6873 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2018, 07:14:AM »
See above.  I have not yet reached a conclusion.  If you look at my posts so far, I have not yet gone beyond delineating the questions and sorting out what is relevant and what isn't.  I haven't even started a serious examination of the evidence yet.  In my view, before doing so, we need to understand in outline the case and the questions to be asked.

I also suspect we will not be able to come to a conclusion as we do not have full disclosure of evidence.

And any conclusion, even with all the evidence to hand, would only be tentative anyway. 

The best we could say is: There are indications that this conviction could be legally-unsafe, but these require further and deeper investigation in preparation for an appeal.

Why are you planning on leaving the forum is you have not arrived at a conclusion yet?



Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2018, 07:22:AM »
Why are you planning on leaving the forum is you have not arrived at a conclusion yet?

For the reasons just given - the Bamber case cannot be viewed through a guilt/innocence frame, therefore discussions here are largely useless.  Like most alleged miscarriages of justice, the Bamber case rests on the technical question of legal safety, which is a legal-scientific question.  If Bamber's conviction can be shown to be unsafe, then he must be released, regardless of whether he actually did it or not.  That's an essential safeguard that the system provides against malicious and inadvertent frame-ups of innocent people.  Even the Birmingham Six case rested on technicalities, their actual culpability never being established one way or the other.

Any discussion we have about the Bamber case should, in my view, be conducted according to legal and scientific principles and should be from the standpoint of neutrality.  Although there are some good discussions here (your latest thread on the neck wound being a case in point, very interesting; and Mike Tesko's threads are good too), overall I don't believe an atmosphere of rational discussion can be achieved, especially if anti-Bamber people are allowed to post here, as they bring negativity into the discussions.  I'd rather pursue my interest in this case on a solo basis - I will be conducting my own (amateur) investigation, but it will be from a neutral standpoint.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2018, 07:23:AM »
The real issue for me is uncovering what happened that fateful night. (Natural law)

Conceptual jurisprudence is Jeremys problem, not mine. To put it bluntly

Then we have nothing further to discuss, as anything you have to say is going to be coloured by your own dishonesty and bias.

Offline David1819

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 07:56:AM »
Then we have nothing further to discuss, as anything you have to say is going to be coloured by your own dishonesty and bias.

Reference to facts and evidence as well inferences that can be drawn from those facts will be coloured by my own dishonesty and bias? LOL

Why constrain yourself to man made legal principles and points of law on an internet forum? This conviction will only buckle under public pressure once the facts become apparent. The legal system will not correct this.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2018, 08:15:AM »
Reference to facts and evidence as well inferences that can be drawn from those facts will be coloured by my own dishonesty and bias? LOL

No, as usual with people here, you deliberately misconstrue my comment.  As explicitly stated by myself above, the point is that you are a priori assuming guilt or innocence and then interpreting the evidence accordingly.  Thus, the premise is wrong.  To you, this is akin to a social, political or religious cause, but you cannot know whether he is guilty or innocent, and even after reviewing all the available evidence, you would not know that, due to the special features of the case.

Even professional lawyers don't do this.  A solicitor is an officer of the court and his first and primary duty is to justice, not to his client.  A barrister is not an officer of the court, merely an advocate, but while he will argue his client's case, he only does so in that professional capacity.  Neither assume guilt or innocence.  Even police, judges and jurors don't, as a rule, know guilt or innocence.  They are just working on the evidence.

Why constrain yourself to man made legal principles and points of law on an internet forum?

Because that's how these cases are decided and that's the ONLY basis on which this case can be understood.  By starting out from an errored premise, you are stunting your own understanding of things.  Every piece of evidence you touch is going to be tainted, because you are looking at things through a lens of guilt or innocence that fulfils your emotional needs.  If you are honest, you will accept this is the case and acknowledge the validity of my point and maybe resolve to be a bit more honest in future, but you are being defensive instead.  I've struck a nerve. 

This conviction will only buckle under public pressure once the facts become apparent. The legal system will not correct this.

How do you know he is innocent in the first place?  You're better than Steve and Adam, but not much.  It's just a question of degrees of dishonesty.  By all means, if you find indications that the conviction is unsafe and you can demonstrate this, then I would support you 100%, but only on that specific basis, not on the basis of innocence, since I can't know that he is innocent.

The reality is that there is no evidence exonerating Jeremy Bamber.  It is possible that new evidence might come to light that does - for instance, a deathbed confession from Ann Eaton or a missing telephone record showing that Nevill did ring 999 after all - but in the absence of such evidence, we are left with what we have.  I don't assert Bamber's guilt or innocence, I merely look at the evidence and facts in so far as we know. 

Your approach is dishonest and shows no respect for truth.  Part of upholding the truth involves recognising what we can't know.

That said....You are free to take up your own opinions and argue them here and help Bamber's campaign.  That's your choice, but if that's the tenor of the discussions, then the discussions are inherently dishonest and likely to involve error and bias - which, by the way, is a large part of the reason miscarriages of justice happen in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 08:18:AM by Luminous Wanderer »

Offline David1819

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2018, 09:34:AM »
No, as usual with people here, you deliberately misconstrue my comment.  As explicitly stated by myself above, the point is that you are a priori assuming guilt or innocence and then interpreting the evidence accordingly.  Thus, the premise is wrong.  To you, this is akin to a social, political or religious cause, but you cannot know whether he is guilty or innocent, and even after reviewing all the available evidence, you would not know that, due to the special features of the case.

No, I am trying to establish who the perpetrator was that fateful night. Its a binary proposition that can be solved.


Because that's how these cases are decided and that's the ONLY basis on which this case can be understood.  By starting out from an errored premise, you are stunting your own understanding of things.  Every piece of evidence you touch is going to be tainted, because you are looking at things through a lens of guilt or innocence that fulfils your emotional needs.  If you are honest, you will accept this is the case and acknowledge the validity of my point and maybe resolve to be a bit more honest in future, but you are being defensive instead.  I've struck a nerve. 


I don't have any emotional investment in this case. I have expressed on multiple occasions that I would prefer Jeremy to be guilty since he has spent 33 years in prison. Jeremy being innocent is a grim scenario that magnifies the tragedy.



How do you know he is innocent in the first place?  You're better than Steve and Adam, but not much.  It's just a question of degrees of dishonesty.  By all means, if you find indications that the conviction is unsafe and you can demonstrate this, then I would support you 100%, but only on that specific basis, not on the basis of innocence, since I can't know that he is innocent.


How do I know he is innocent? Not an easy way to explain it. But having gone through so much case material its just something I have slowly come to accept once the big picture emerges.




The reality is that there is no evidence exonerating Jeremy Bamber.  It is possible that new evidence might come to light that does - for instance, a deathbed confession from Ann Eaton or a missing telephone record showing that Nevill did ring 999 after all - but in the absence of such evidence, we are left with what we have.  I don't assert Bamber's guilt or innocence, I merely look at the evidence and facts in so far as we know. 


Several members on here (including myself) have material that is confidential. That sucks I know (There is material I wish I had my hands on but cant) I know this sounds shady but there is not much I can do about it. NGB knows more about this. Any why this is.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 09:36:AM by David1819 »

Offline Adam

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2018, 09:50:AM »
No, as usual with people here, you deliberately misconstrue my comment.  As explicitly stated by myself above, the point is that you are a priori assuming guilt or innocence and then interpreting the evidence accordingly.  Thus, the premise is wrong.  To you, this is akin to a social, political or religious cause, but you cannot know whether he is guilty or innocent, and even after reviewing all the available evidence, you would not know that, due to the special features of the case.

Even professional lawyers don't do this.  A solicitor is an officer of the court and his first and primary duty is to justice, not to his client.  A barrister is not an officer of the court, merely an advocate, but while he will argue his client's case, he only does so in that professional capacity.  Neither assume guilt or innocence.  Even police, judges and jurors don't, as a rule, know guilt or innocence.  They are just working on the evidence.

Because that's how these cases are decided and that's the ONLY basis on which this case can be understood.  By starting out from an errored premise, you are stunting your own understanding of things.  Every piece of evidence you touch is going to be tainted, because you are looking at things through a lens of guilt or innocence that fulfils your emotional needs.  If you are honest, you will accept this is the case and acknowledge the validity of my point and maybe resolve to be a bit more honest in future, but you are being defensive instead.  I've struck a nerve. 

How do you know he is innocent in the first place?  You're better than Steve and Adam, but not much.  It's just a question of degrees of dishonesty.  By all means, if you find indications that the conviction is unsafe and you can demonstrate this, then I would support you 100%, but only on that specific basis, not on the basis of innocence, since I can't know that he is innocent.

The reality is that there is no evidence exonerating Jeremy Bamber.  It is possible that new evidence might come to light that does - for instance, a deathbed confession from Ann Eaton or a missing telephone record showing that Nevill did ring 999 after all - but in the absence of such evidence, we are left with what we have.  I don't assert Bamber's guilt or innocence, I merely look at the evidence and facts in so far as we know. 

Your approach is dishonest and shows no respect for truth.  Part of upholding the truth involves recognising what we can't know.

That said....You are free to take up your own opinions and argue them here and help Bamber's campaign.  That's your choice, but if that's the tenor of the discussions, then the discussions are inherently dishonest and likely to involve error and bias - which, by the way, is a large part of the reason miscarriages of justice happen in the first place.

The mountain of forensic and circumstantial evidence shows Bamber is guilty. Which is why Bamber was arrested, convicted and has failed to get released. The evidence has already been posted.

The only way Bamber is innocent is if there was an industrial frame. Involving hundreds of people and dozens of departments.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2018, 10:20:AM »
 There goes the mountain again  :)) :))
An even bigger one is hidden under his innocence-----much like the formation of an iceberg.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2018, 04:44:AM »
The mountain of forensic and circumstantial evidence shows Bamber is guilty. Which is why Bamber was arrested, convicted and has failed to get released. The evidence has already been posted.


I will concede one point to you - the case against Bamber is stronger than I had expected.  However I remain neutral.  On no account should you assume that I lean towards either camp in the generality.

The only way Bamber is innocent is if there was an industrial frame. Involving hundreds of people and dozens of departments.

I disagree.  I think Bamber could be innocent on the basis of a perfectly mundane fact pattern, but my concern here is whether his conviction is safe, not guilt/innocence.

Offline lookout

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2018, 10:22:AM »
So we're all wrong except him/her  ::) Ah well it takes all sorts I suppose.

Offline Adam

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2018, 10:40:AM »


I will concede one point to you - the case against Bamber is stronger than I had expected.  However I remain neutral.  On no account should you assume that I lean towards either camp in the generality.

I disagree.  I think Bamber could be innocent on the basis of a perfectly mundane fact pattern, but my concern here is whether his conviction is safe, not guilt/innocence.

'Perfectly mundane fact pattern' ?

The conviction must be the safest ever. It's stood despite 33 years of people trying to find a technicality.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2018, 02:13:PM »
'Perfectly mundane fact pattern' ?

The conviction must be the safest ever. It's stood despite 33 years of people trying to find a technicality.

Which must be balanced against the fact that Jeremy Bamber maintains his innocence and is the only prisoner subject to a whole life order who does so.  Is there any precedence for this, anywhere in the world?

All criminal convictions are provisional.  They are only valid for so long as they are considered safe.

Offline Adam

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2018, 02:29:PM »
Which must be balanced against the fact that Jeremy Bamber maintains his innocence and is the only prisoner subject to a whole life order who does so.  Is there any precedence for this, anywhere in the world?

All criminal convictions are provisional.  They are only valid for so long as they are considered safe.

I still don't know what 'perfectly mundane fact pattern' is.

Bamber protesting his innocence for 33 years, just makes him more guilty. As he's failed to convince the legal system he is innocent. This simultaneously makes the conviction very safe.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2018, 02:33:PM »
It's down to tests that will be carried out by forensics that will be the real proof of innocence/guilt and not particularly by lip service alone,by anyone.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Legal Reasoning Lesson 001: Relevancy
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2018, 03:05:PM »
Which must be balanced against the fact that Jeremy Bamber maintains his innocence and is the only prisoner subject to a whole life order who does so.  Is there any precedence for this, anywhere in the world?

All criminal convictions are provisional.  They are only valid for so long as they are considered safe.
It's completely irrelevant judged by the yardstick of your own criteria.