Author Topic: Is Julie Mugford relevant?  (Read 48463 times)

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guest154

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2018, 08:47:PM »
and about David Doutflour.


Bamber claims that David Boutflour found
the silencer on September 11, not August 10, and
was “prevailed upon” to engage in a conspiracy
and backdate it. Boutflour, of course, says this
is nonsense, and everything happened just as
he said it did at the time and repeated in court.
“Just to put it clearly,” Boutflour said at the
end of our meeting, “I have never had any
doubts that Jeremy is guilty.”

He says that the scratch marks were
deliberately made to incriminate him
later‚ all part of a plan to frame him for
the murders and ensure that he did not
receive his rightful inheritance. His
cousin David Boutflour dismisses his
claim as ‘absolute piffle’


When David Boutflour,
Ann Eaton and Anthony Pargeter went to
raise their suspicions of Bamber with him, he
was having none of it

Jones conducted a bare minimum of
forensic inquiry and returned the house keys
to the family after two days so that Jeremy’s
cousins David Boutflour and Ann Eaton could
go in and have a clean-up. David and Ann’s
father, Robert, was there too that day. He was
married to June Bamber’s sister Pamela. (Robert
is now in his nineties and suffering from
Alzheimer’s.) Nowadays, of course, the property
would be sealed for weeks and the forensic
inquiries would be painstaking, but in the 1980s,
senior officers were often a law unto themselves,
and once they — some of them — had made their
minds up, that was that.

20
what had happened. Boutflour ignored the letter
and insisted to me when we met that there was no
conspiracy, no perjuring, no fit-up.
Ann Eaton moved into the farm not long after
the murders and still lives there with her family.
Bamber told me he thought she was a “sick
puppy” for doing that. Eaton would not talk to me
for this article — indeed, after I wrote her a polite
letter I received a “warning” call from an Essex
police detective superintendent asking me to
leave her alone, which I did — but David Boutflour
was generous and spoke to me at length. It is clear
he doesn’t understand his sister’s actions either.
How could she? Boutflour told me he knew Ann’s
children had suffered nightmares. As well you
might. Bamber said she was “as cold as ice”.
At the very least, the killings created lasting
schisms across the family, mostly to do with
money and inheritance. A third, more distant
cousin, Anthony Pargeter, has waged his own
long legal struggle against the estate, to claim
what he believes is his share. I was told he had
suffered his own mental anguish as a result.
amber was downgraded some years
ago from a Category-A prisoner to
Category-B, meaning he was not such a
risk of escape and his conditions could be slightly
relaxed. He was upgraded again to Cat-A,
apparently after his cousins complained, having
received guidance from Essex police on how they
might make their feelings about his change of
status known. It was apparent he feels very
resentful about that. Of course the police advice
might be seen as perfectly proper, but Bamber
insists the cousins were simply being vindictive.
While Bamber began living it large after the
killings, spending money on holidays, meals and
drinks for him and his girlfriend, 21-year-old Julie
Mugford, and other friends, his relatives — Ann,
David and their father, Robert — quickly became
suspicious. They doubted Sheila was capable of
the shootings and watched Bamber carefully for
signs of suspect behaviour, imagining all kinds of
fancy theories about how he might have got to and
from the farm undetected, using a bicycle to get
there and a small unlatched window to gain entry.
During the clean-up on August 10, by his own
account David Boutflour picked up some
ammunition that was lying around and went to
return it to the gun cupboard where he found
hidden away the sound moderator — we can call
it the “silencer” — of the murder weapon. It was
sticky as if it had been hurriedly cleaned, and
appeared to show spots of blood and flecks of
red paint, and a single hair.
Boutflour told me: “I remember some things like
it was yesterday. I remember finding the silencer.
He’s suggesting that we fraudulently shoved
the paint and the blood in to make it appear he
had done it. Well, that’s a load of rubbish. What
would be the point? There was enough evidence
anyway. What an absolute load of piffle.”

Bamber was
disinherited on conviction and the estate passed
to the Boutflours. He believes David Boutflour
might “admit” his part in this conspiracy
and wrote to him not long ago asking him to
“play the white man” and be honest about what had happened. Boutflour ignored the letter
and insisted to me when we met that there was no
conspiracy, no perjuring, no fit-up.


But David Boutflour
was generous and spoke to me at length. It is clear
he doesn’t understand his sister’s actions either.
How could she? Boutflour told me he knew Ann’s
children had suffered nightmares. As well you
might. Bamber said she was “as cold as ice”.
At the very least, the killings created lasting
schisms across the family, mostly to do with
money and inheritance. A third, more distant
cousin, Anthony Pargeter, has waged his own
long legal struggle against the estate, to claim
what he believes is his share. I was told he had
suffered his own mental anguish as a result.

guest154

  • Guest
Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2018, 08:48:PM »
That's the article by DJS from 2010. If Boutflour said to DJS as you claim, then why didn't DJS put that in his article?

Offline David1819

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2018, 10:45:PM »
Where?

Carol Ann Lee - The Murders at White House Farm: Page 50

"But in the aftermath of the murders, it was the expedition to Scotland which became the focus of discussion, regarding whether or not Sheila had used a gun during the trip. Jeremy was adamant that she had, but initially his relatives demurred. More recently, David Boutflour recalled that Sheila had in fact fired his shotgun."


She cites. David James Smith full interview transcript, 2010

On page 419 she writes.

"Journalist and author David James Smith very kindly made the transcript of his 2010 interviews with Jeremy Bamber and David and Karen Boutflour available to me."


« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 10:46:PM by David1819 »

guest154

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2018, 10:47:PM »
Carol Ann Lee - The Murders at White House Farm: Page 50

"But in the aftermath of the murders, it was the expedition to Scotland which became the focus of discussion, regarding whether or not Sheila had used a gun during the trip. Jeremy was adamant that she had, but initially his relatives demurred. More recently, David Boutflour recalled that Sheila had in fact fired his shotgun."


She cites. David James Smith full interview transcript, 2010

On page 419 she writes.

"Journalist and author David James Smith very kindly made the transcript of his 2010 interviews with Jeremy Bamber and David and Karen Boutflour available to me."

If that's the case. Why didn't David Smith put that in the article that he wrote, regarding his interviews with Boutflour at that time?

Seems like quite the glaring thing to leave out, don't you think?

guest154

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2018, 12:10:AM »
If that's the case. Why didn't David Smith put that in the article that he wrote, regarding his interviews with Boutflour at that time?

Seems like quite the glaring thing to leave out, don't you think?

Also, is that the FULL quote from the book?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2018, 12:56:AM »
Also, is that the FULL quote from the book?
Yes the one on page 420 is just Carol Ann Lee expressing gratitude to the people who provided sources for her book. David is being a little disingenuous though because there's further information on the shooting trip in Scotland:

The party had stopped for coffee and sandwiches on a mountainside: "And she said, "Oh we girls haven't ever shot a gun, would you mind if I tried, just tried, to shoot it?" And so I gave her the 12-bore and told her to hold it very tightly into her shoulder. (She) fired it vertically in the air, virtually."

Offline Harry

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2018, 07:47:AM »
and about David Doutflour.


Bamber claims that David Boutflour found
the silencer on September 11, not August 10, and
was “prevailed upon” to engage in a conspiracy
and backdate it. Boutflour, of course, says this
is nonsense, and everything happened just as
he said it did at the time and repeated in court.
“Just to put it clearly,” Boutflour said at the
end of our meeting, “I have never had any
doubts that Jeremy is guilty.”....

He says that the scratch marks were
deliberately made to incriminate him
later‚ all part of a plan to frame him for
the murders and ensure that he did not
receive his rightful inheritance. His
cousin David Boutflour dismisses his
claim as ‘absolute piffle’


One might well ask are the police documents listed below (and one might add, documents which are consistent in the information they provide) "absolute piffle." 

Bamber's claim is backed up by solid evidence. There isn't just one report of the relatives handing in a silencer after September 11th but several mutually corroborative references involving different police officers.

This is an interesting article. The evidence appears to be clear cut.
http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html

(Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour has found a silencer with blood on it’

(Doc P35) Action Report 88 reads: ‘Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey’

(Doc P34) Action Report 181 allocated to DS Davidson, 13th September 1985: “Examine the following for blood fibres and finger prints. 2/ cardboard box containing silencer and ammunition. 3/ Check silencer for fibres”


In addition a statement from Robert Boutflour (Doc P29) states that the accountant Basil Cock was complaining about fingerprint dust when the silencer was found and paid no interest to it.

White House Farm was not fingerprinted until after September 7th. Therefore it must have been found after this date.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:01:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2018, 07:56:AM »
One might well ask are the police documents listed below (and one might add, documents which are consistent in the information they provide) "absolute piffle." 

Bamber's claim is backed up by solid evidence. There isn't just one report of the relatives handing in a silencer after September 11th but several mutually corroborative references involving different police officers.

This is an interesting article. The evidence appears to be clear cut.
http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html

(Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour has found a silencer with blood on it’

(Doc P35) Action Report 88 reads: ‘Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey’

(Doc P34) Action Report 181 allocated to DS Davidson, 13th September 1985: “Examine the following for blood fibres and finger prints. 2/ cardboard box containing silencer and ammunition. 3/ Check silencer for fibres”

In addition a statement from Robert Boutflour (Doc P29) states that the accountant Basil Cock was complaining about fingerprint dust when the silencer was found and paid no interest to it.

White House Farm was not fingerprinted until after September 7th. Therefore it must have been found after this date.


http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html

"That evening (11th Sept) DC Oakey goes to Ann Eaton’s House and takes possession of a sound moderator DRB/1 and 350 rounds of ammunition for a .22 rifle. DC Oakey logs these items into the miscellaneous property book.

On September 12 1985 Ann Eaton contacts DI Cook making a fuss about the Police not finding DRB/1 the sound moderator, or of seeing the scratch marks made by this sound moderator on the underside of the mantle shelf. DI Cook, DC Bird and DS Davidson agree to meet Ann at White House Farm as a PR exercise. On arrival Ann shows DI Cook the scratch marks. DI Cook takes a second paint sample which he hands to DS Davidson. DC Bird takes photographs of the mantle shelf’s underside."


It is apparent from the above that Ann Eaton showed DI Cook the scratch marks and made that fuss with the police after she contacted them on September 12th. Assuming that these references are correct, it would appear to constitute proof that DI Cook and his colleagues forged the document in which he claimed that he had engaged in the above conversation with Ann Eaton on August 14th.

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9278.0;attach=52143;image


It looks very much like the supposed "finding" of the silencer on Sept 11th by David Boutflour was set up (with the intention of changing the dates already established in the minds of the policemen involved).

This is material for a front page headline in a national daily. There is proof that the silencer evidence was faked. It is police documentation which proves it.

The problem for Bamber is that his enemies control the media.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 08:17:AM by Harry »

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2018, 08:19:AM »
someone needs to update the typo DATE mistake in second paragraph
http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Harry

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2018, 08:41:AM »
someone needs to update the typo DATE mistake in second paragraph
http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html


"07/07/85 DC Bird Photographs interior of White House Farm, photograph strip 7, negative one shows mantle shelf unscratched. The house is forensically examined. The Sound Moderator SBJ/1 and .22 Anshultz rifle are found at this time and are taken to Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory."

Yes, it says  July 7th, and not August 7th.

It also correctly says that a silencer was found on that date and that it was given the reference SBJ/1. That was, in fact, the silencer sent to the laboratory to be examined  by Glynis Howard on August 13th.
 
When Jeremy was interviewed by the police on 9th of August he was questioned about the silencer which the police had found.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:24:AM by Harry »

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2018, 08:46:AM »

"07/07/85 DC Bird Photographs interior of White House Farm, photograph strip 7, negative one shows mantle shelf unscratched. The house is forensically examined. The Sound Moderator SBJ/1 and .22 Anshultz rifle are found at this time and are taken to Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory."

Yes, it says  July 7th, and not August 7th.

It also correctly says that the a silencer was found on that date and that it was given the reference SBJ/1. That was in fact the silencer sent to the laboratory to be examined  by Glynis Howard on August 13th.
 
When Jeremy was interviewed by the police on 9th of August he was questioned about the silencer which the police had found.

Is the typo DATE error 'Hannah's' or DC Bird ?
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Harry

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2018, 08:54:AM »
Is the typo DATE error 'Hannah's' or DC Bird ?

I think we need to see copies of the documents Hannah is quoting from. Assuming nothing is amiss apart from an obvious typo, the evidence of a conspiracy would appear to be conclusive.
 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:14:AM by Harry »

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2018, 09:26:AM »
I think we need to see copies of the documents Hannah is quoting from. Assuming nothing is amiss apart from an obvious typo, the evidence of a conspiracy would appear to be conclusive.
 

Something else which does not make sense.

'09/08/85 DI Cook takes a paint sample from AGA surround to match against paint on the barrel of the gun found downstairs that the Police had seized from the scene. DS Davidson was actioned to take the sound moderator (SBJ/1), and magazines for the .22 rifle, to be fingerprinted and examined. '

http://jeremybamberinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/case-of-jeremy-bamber.html

If they found paint of the barrel of the gun, then surely the 'moderator' wasn't used during the struggle. Also what gun found downstairs had paint on the barrel they wanted to match against Aga paint?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 09:33:AM by Nigel »
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Nigel

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2018, 10:46:AM »
The long straight shooting tube aka 'barrel' could not have made the 'scratches' the end of the barrel must not have had 'moderator' fitted if they were testing for 'paint'.
I note the 'sound moderator' is mentioned separately.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:49:AM by Nigel »
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline buddy

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Re: Is Julie Mugford relevant?
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2018, 02:42:PM »
and about David Doutflour.


Bamber claims that David Boutflour found
the silencer on September 11, not August 10, and
was “prevailed upon” to engage in a conspiracy
and backdate it. Boutflour, of course, says this
is nonsense, and everything happened just as
he said it did at the time and repeated in court.
“Just to put it clearly,” Boutflour said at the
end of our meeting, “I have never had any
doubts that Jeremy is guilty.”

He says that the scratch marks were
deliberately made to incriminate him
later‚ all part of a plan to frame him for
the murders and ensure that he did not
receive his rightful inheritance. His
cousin David Boutflour dismisses his
claim as ‘absolute piffle’


When David Boutflour,
Ann Eaton and Anthony Pargeter went to
raise their suspicions of Bamber with him, he
was having none of it

Jones conducted a bare minimum of
forensic inquiry and returned the house keys
to the family after two days so that Jeremy’s
cousins David Boutflour and Ann Eaton could
go in and have a clean-up. David and Ann’s
father, Robert, was there too that day. He was
married to June Bamber’s sister Pamela. (Robert
is now in his nineties and suffering from
Alzheimer’s.) Nowadays, of course, the property
would be sealed for weeks and the forensic
inquiries would be painstaking, but in the 1980s,
senior officers were often a law unto themselves,
and once they — some of them — had made their
minds up, that was that.

20
what had happened. Boutflour ignored the letter
and insisted to me when we met that there was no
conspiracy, no perjuring, no fit-up.
Ann Eaton moved into the farm not long after
the murders and still lives there with her family.
Bamber told me he thought she was a “sick
puppy” for doing that. Eaton would not talk to me
for this article — indeed, after I wrote her a polite
letter I received a “warning” call from an Essex
police detective superintendent asking me to
leave her alone, which I did — but David Boutflour
was generous and spoke to me at length. It is clear
he doesn’t understand his sister’s actions either.
How could she? Boutflour told me he knew Ann’s
children had suffered nightmares. As well you
might. Bamber said she was “as cold as ice”.
At the very least, the killings created lasting
schisms across the family, mostly to do with
money and inheritance. A third, more distant
cousin, Anthony Pargeter, has waged his own
long legal struggle against the estate, to claim
what he believes is his share. I was told he had
suffered his own mental anguish as a result.
amber was downgraded some years
ago from a Category-A prisoner to
Category-B, meaning he was not such a
risk of escape and his conditions could be slightly
relaxed. He was upgraded again to Cat-A,
apparently after his cousins complained, having
received guidance from Essex police on how they
might make their feelings about his change of
status known. It was apparent he feels very
resentful about that. Of course the police advice
might be seen as perfectly proper, but Bamber
insists the cousins were simply being vindictive.
While Bamber began living it large after the
killings, spending money on holidays, meals and
drinks for him and his girlfriend, 21-year-old Julie
Mugford, and other friends, his relatives — Ann,
David and their father, Robert — quickly became
suspicious. They doubted Sheila was capable of
the shootings and watched Bamber carefully for
signs of suspect behaviour, imagining all kinds of
fancy theories about how he might have got to and
from the farm undetected, using a bicycle to get
there and a small unlatched window to gain entry.
During the clean-up on August 10, by his own
account David Boutflour picked up some
ammunition that was lying around and went to
return it to the gun cupboard where he found
hidden away the sound moderator — we can call
it the “silencer” — of the murder weapon. It was
sticky as if it had been hurriedly cleaned, and
appeared to show spots of blood and flecks of
red paint, and a single hair.
Boutflour told me: “I remember some things like
it was yesterday. I remember finding the silencer.
He’s suggesting that we fraudulently shoved
the paint and the blood in to make it appear he
had done it. Well, that’s a load of rubbish. What
would be the point? There was enough evidence
anyway. What an absolute load of piffle.”

Bamber was
disinherited on conviction and the estate passed
to the Boutflours. He believes David Boutflour
might “admit” his part in this conspiracy
and wrote to him not long ago asking him to
“play the white man” and be honest about what had happened. Boutflour ignored the letter
and insisted to me when we met that there was no
conspiracy, no perjuring, no fit-up.


But David Boutflour
was generous and spoke to me at length. It is clear
he doesn’t understand his sister’s actions either.
How could she? Boutflour told me he knew Ann’s
children had suffered nightmares. As well you
might. Bamber said she was “as cold as ice”.
At the very least, the killings created lasting
schisms across the family, mostly to do with
money and inheritance. A third, more distant
cousin, Anthony Pargeter, has waged his own
long legal struggle against the estate, to claim
what he believes is his share. I was told he had
suffered his own mental anguish as a result.

According to Hartley it was years after the murders the Eatons moved into WHF