could rwb have been psycic.

[Roch]

How can you possibly know they had? What plausible reason could you give for such? Are you attempting to set free every crim who denies the crime they were convicted of? Perhaps you'd like to have a look at a current one. Elderly man, walking his dog, killed with such ferocity that his head was nearly severed. The alleged perp, a dog hater -despite his DNA being on the body- admits to being in the area but denies murder. I guess you'd want to find him innocent. After all, if he insists he's innocent......................

Totally irrelevant rant.  Besides, TFG raised serious concerns that the scene had been re-staged. A fact which only came to light many years after JB had been imprisoned.

[Jane]

Totally irrelevant rant.  Besides, TFG raised serious concerns that the scene had been re-staged. A fact which only came to light many years after JB had been imprisoned.

But you haven't answered my -perfectly reasonable- question. You've side-stepped. As for those "serious concerns" raised by the TFG? Exactly WHO was concerned? Perhaps just those who were looking for nothing in order to try and make something out of it?

[Roch]

But you haven't answered my -perfectly reasonable- question. You've side-stepped. As for those "serious concerns" raised by the TFG? Exactly WHO was concerned? Perhaps just those who were looking for nothing in order to try and make something out of it?

What serious question?  A couple of TFG raised concerns individually and they raised '"real concerns" as a group, on more than one occasion and to more than one detective. It happened because they were briefed with accompanying crime scene photos - but the scene depicted in the photos could not be reconciled with the scene they encountered. One officer couldn't even recall there having been a rifle present. 
Then there's the small matter of the 'informatives',

[Jane]

What serious question?  A couple of TFG raised concerns individually and '"real concerns" as s group, on more than one occasion and to more than one detective. It happened because they were briefed with accompanying crime scene photos - but the scene depicted in the photos could not be reconciled with the scene they encountered. One officer couldn't even recall there having been a rifle present. 
Then there's the small matter of the 'informatives',

Well now, I guess I'd think it pretty strange -given the diversity of characters involved- if they were all speaking off the same script. Given that diversity, there is bound to be a diversity of opinions about what took place, but none of that means they think Jeremy is innocent.

See, it's easy to throw it out there that  'cops' made a mucking fuddle of the investigation -aided and abetted by Jeremy, but that's conveniently forgotten- but no one has yet to give an acceptable reason for it. I MIGHT be prepared to have accepted that they shot her ONCE in the line of duty, but to have her get up and 'escape' upstairs with such an appalling injury, only to have them shoot her again, is beyond belief, and to top that by having them cobble together some fantastic -MYTHICAL- tale, at the outset, when they had a convenient culprit who couldn't argue for themselves, is asking too much.

[Caroline]

Totally irrelevant rant.  Besides, TFG raised serious concerns that the scene had been re-staged. A fact which only came to light many years after JB had been imprisoned.

How many TFG and how long afterwards? Did they raise 'serious' concerns or did they just question a few things? Why would it come to light any sooner when they weren't really sure?

[Caroline]

What serious question?  A couple of TFG raised concerns individually and they raised '"real concerns" as a group, on more than one occasion and to more than one detective. It happened because they were briefed with accompanying crime scene photos - but the scene depicted in the photos could not be reconciled with the scene they encountered. One officer couldn't even recall there having been a rifle present. 
Then there's the small matter of the 'informatives',

As a group? Really? So like everyone else, they're a;; 'buttoned up' now? How many TFG are you actually talking about?

One couldn't remember a rifle so that means he must be correct and all the other who spotted it must be wrong?

Informatives - what informatives ?

[Jane]

As a group? Really? So like everyone else, they're a;; 'buttoned up' now? How many TFG are you actually talking about?

One couldn't remember a rifle so that means he must be correct and all the other who spotted it must be wrong?

Informatives - what informatives ?

Yeah. WHAT exactly, are informatives?

[Roch]

Well now, I guess I'd think it pretty strange -given the diversity of characters involved- if they were all speaking off the same script. Given that diversity, there is bound to be a diversity of opinions about what took place, but none of that means they think Jeremy is innocent.

See, it's easy to throw it out there that  'cops' made a mucking fuddle of the investigation -aided and abetted by Jeremy, but that's conveniently forgotten- but no one has yet to give an acceptable reason for it. I MIGHT be prepared to have accepted that they shot her ONCE in the line of duty, but to have her get up and 'escape' upstairs with such an appalling injury, only to have them shoot her again, is beyond belief, and to top that by having them cobble together some fantastic -MYTHICAL- tale, at the outset, when they had a convenient culprit who couldn't argue for themselves, is asking too much.

None of this seems relevant to our little discussion (regarding the TFG officers being unhappy with Sheila's crime scene; as depicted in the crime scene photographs). 

You had to point out again, that no circumstance whatsoever in the history of mankind (or for that matter the universe) 'makes Jeremy innocent'. 

[Caroline]

None of this seems relevant to our little discussion (regarding the TFG officers being unhappy with Sheila's crime scene; as depicted in the crime scene photographs). 

You had to point out again, that no circumstance whatsoever in the history of mankind (or for that matter the universe) 'makes Jeremy innocent'.

You seem to be inferring that they were ALL unhappy?

[Jane]

None of this seems relevant to our little discussion (regarding the TFG officers being unhappy with Sheila's crime scene; as depicted in the crime scene photographs). 

You had to point out again, that no circumstance whatsoever in the history of mankind (or for that matter the universe) 'makes Jeremy innocent'.

Whilst you seem to be searching under every stone to try to find something which makes him APPEAR to be innocent.................which isn't quite the same thing as BEING innocent, is it?

[Roch]

How many TFG and how long afterwards? Did they raise 'serious' concerns or did they just question a few things? Why would it come to light any sooner when they weren't really sure?

Collins, Delgado and Adams.  Also, concerns were raised 'as a group'.  Both the Jones', Ainsley and Montgomery were all spoken with about the concerns.

As a group? Really? So like everyone else, they're a;; 'buttoned up' now?

The officers did the right thing by raising their concerns internally.  They registered their unhappiness but their concerns were simply noted and dismissed, by way of reassurance. 

One couldn't remember a rifle so that means he must be correct and all the other who spotted it must be wrong?

Not exactly.  Another officer corroborated, by placing the rifle as being elsewhere in the crime scene.  It would be a bit difficult to not recall a rifle being on top of a woman, that you've just burst in to a farmhouse for the specific reason of cornering and neutralising - don't you think?

Informatives - what informatives ?

Training procedures e.g. practising removing gun from Sheila.

[Jane]

.........................

Training procedures e.g. practising removing gun from Sheila.

So now, having established that they didn't -as a group- state unequivocally that they were concerned, have you ANY idea just how ludicrous sounds that last sentence. How many of them were there? How long did it take for someone to decide that this, here would be a jolly good training exercise? How long did it take to rustle up this crack team which would benefit from being sent on a training exercise -or was it ad hoc? It seems to me that one or two may have said that it wasn't the way they'd have carried out the exercise and it's been blown up to say they all had concerns.

[Roch]

So now, having established that they didn't - as a group- state unequivocally that they were concerned...

That's not accurate though is it?  The TFG did 'as a group' express 'real concerns' - in addition to it being known that three of their group noted their own concerns individually.

Not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent my posts? 

have you ANY idea just how ludicrous sounds that last sentence. How many of them were there? How long did it take for someone to decide that this, here would be a jolly good training exercise? How long did it take to rustle up this crack team which would benefit from being sent on a training exercise -or was it ad hoc? It seems to me that one or two may have said that it wasn't the way they'd have carried out the exercise and it's been blown up to say they all had concerns.

I'm struggling to understand exactly what you mean here.  If you can express this again in a different way, I may be able to respond.

[Jane]

That's not accurate though is it?  The TFG did 'as a group' express 'real concerns' - in addition to it being known that three of their group noted their own concerns individually.

Not sure why you feel the need to misrepresent my posts? 

I'm struggling to understand exactly what you mean here.  If you can express this again in a different way, I may be able to respond.

"Practice removing gun from Sheila"!!!!! Are you telling me that this crack team had no experience of removing guns from bodies, using either team members during role play, or dummies? Why was it deemed necessary to carry out exercises which could perfectly well have been done anywhere other than in a place where it totally disrespected the dignity of victims. I'm VERY hard pushed to believe such occurred, even if personnel were present.

[lookout]

Whilst you seem to be searching under every stone to try to find something which makes him APPEAR to be innocent.................which isn't quite the same thing as BEING innocent, is it?

You can't just MAKE a person guilty either,when it suits those all round.