Author Topic: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...  (Read 8300 times)

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Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2017, 12:28:PM »
As I understand it, they didn't involve posing with the bodies of the victims?

Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos. 


Offline Caroline

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2017, 12:29:PM »
A police helicopter was involved.

Do we have confirmation of this though? As for the posing with bodies, wasn't it more to do with posing with a page 3 newspaper at the scene? Still wrong but nothing like as bad as posing with bodies.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2017, 12:30:PM »
Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos.

Oh OK, just asked this - posts must have crossed. Still a bit sick but not quite as bad as has been suggested.
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Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2017, 12:33:PM »
Do we have confirmation of this though? As for the posing with bodies, wasn't it more to do with posing with a page 3 newspaper at the scene? Still wrong but nothing like as bad as posing with bodies.

Yes.

Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2017, 12:34:PM »
Oh OK, just asked this - posts must have crossed. Still a bit sick but not quite as bad as has been suggested.

I agree.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 12:37:PM »
Yes.

Did the photograph make the newspapers?
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Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2017, 12:40:PM »
Did the photograph make the newspapers?

No. 

Offline Jane

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2017, 12:52:PM »
Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos.

So are you happy to confirm that NO photographs were taken of Sheila in a semi nude state, and that any inclusion of bodies was accidental?

Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2017, 01:20:PM »
So are you happy to confirm that NO photographs were taken of Sheila in a semi nude state, and that any inclusion of bodies was accidental?

I am not in a position to confirm that.  I only know about the photographs now available to the defence.  There are others which have not been disclosed and which Essex Police claim have been destroyed, without giving any satisfactory explanation for the destruction of the negatives.

Offline Jane

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2017, 01:43:PM »
I am not in a position to confirm that.  I only know about the photographs now available to the defence.  There are others which have not been disclosed and which Essex Police claim have been destroyed, without giving any satisfactory explanation for the destruction of the negatives.

It looks, then, as if it's safe to conclude that no such pictures existed. I fail to see why any explanation would have been necessary for their destruction, unless it was a case of issuing a statement saying "EP have destroyed X number of inappropriate and disrespectful pictures of victims of the WHF massacre"

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2017, 07:52:AM »
Like Pamela Boutflour said, her sister June Bamber told her that Sheila had been behaving strangely and June intended to bring Sheila and the children around for tea on the day of the tragedy so that Pamela could assess her more closely! But it never transpired because by the early hours of the next morning, Sheila had shot and killed four members of her family. Sheila herself remained barely alive until 9.13am, when she was shot dead on the bedroom floor!!!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2017, 08:09:AM »
Like Pamela Boutflour said, her sister June Bamber told her that Sheila had been behaving strangely and June intended to bring Sheila and the children around for tea on the day of the tragedy so that Pamela could assess her more closely! But it never transpired because by the early hours of the next morning, Sheila had shot and killed four members of her family. Sheila herself remained barely alive until 9.13am, when she was shot dead on the bedroom floor!!!

Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.

The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 08:38:AM by Jane J »

Offline Caroline

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2017, 10:17:AM »
Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.

The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.

Good post Jane, totally agree. I read the statement as June being concerned about Sheila and simply saying to Pam 'see what you think'?
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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2017, 10:36:AM »
Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.

The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.
Great post as usual Jane.  To the point and very articulate, you remind me of me  ;D ;D ;D

Online ngb1066

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Re: The missing Pamela Boutflour witness statements...
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2017, 11:23:AM »
It looks, then, as if it's safe to conclude that no such pictures existed. I fail to see why any explanation would have been necessary for their destruction, unless it was a case of issuing a statement saying "EP have destroyed X number of inappropriate and disrespectful pictures of victims of the WHF massacre"

Police protocols dictated that no negative should be removed from the strips of ten used.  In this case quite a few have been physically removed by cutting the strips.  The explanation given was that the frames removed were unexposed.  However, that is not a valid reason for removing them and there would be no benefit in doing so.  It is at the very least suspicious and leads to the suggestion that the removed frames showed things which the police might have found embarrassing. 

 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 01:36:PM by ngb1066 »