The tinfoil in the safe

[David1819]

You need to consult the legal team. Your argument on this is outdated.

Consult the legal team and make an idiot out of myself? no thanks.

Police confirm they created kitchen mess. Kitchen fight invented by AE and RWB. Photos show blood runnells on her arm as described by Vanezis. But Roch believes in kitchen fight.

Vanezis original autopsy that concludes the following quote -

1) Ralph Neville Bamber   9-6-24  61 years

2) June Bamber    3-6-24  61 years

3) Sheila Jean Caffell   18-7-58   27 years

4) Daniel Caffell 6 years  22-6-79 Camden

5) Nicholas Caffell 6 years  22-6-79 Camden


Numbers 1,2,4 and 5 shot by no3 who then shot herself.
1 and 2 are her parents and 4 and 5 are her twin sons.
The twins are to be identified as Left-Red and Right-Blue
Left and Right indicates the beds they were sleeping in
and red and blue the colour of their pyjamas.
They all lived at white house farm Tolleshunt D'Arcy


end quote.

Never mentions such wounds. The above hardly sounds like something under the captaincy of Ainsley and Co. The argument he covered up wounds does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Roch]

Consult the legal team and make an idiot out of myself? no thanks.

Police confirm they created kitchen mess. Kitchen fight invented by AE and RWB. Photos show blood runnells on her arm as described by Vanezis. But Roch believes in kitchen fight.

Vanezis original autopsy that concludes the following quote -

1) Ralph Neville Bamber   9-6-24  61 years

2) June Bamber    3-6-24  61 years

3) Sheila Jean Caffell   18-7-58   27 years

4) Daniel Caffell 6 years  22-6-79 Camden

5) Nicholas Caffell 6 years  22-6-79 Camden


Numbers 1,2,4 and 5 shot by no3 who then shot herself.
1 and 2 are her parents and 4 and 5 are her twin sons.
The twins are to be identified as Left-Red and Right-Blue
Left and Right indicates the beds they were sleeping in
and red and blue the colour of their pyjamas.
They all lived at white house farm Tolleshunt D'Arcy


end quote.

Never mentions such wounds. The above hardly sounds like something under the captaincy of Ainsley and Co. The argument he covered up wounds does not stand up to scrutiny.

I dont recall strongly arguing for a fight in the kitchen, at any time.  You need to see higher def images. The skin is broken and the runs peter-out from the wounds.  If you go to the legal team and demand confirmation that Sheila has no additional wounds, you will return with egg dripping from your chin.

[Caroline]

He's not committing a crime by sharing with you in 2014, that was optimistic there was an earring part on the kitchen floor. I don't get what you mean.

He would be undertaking a very risky enterprise trying to kill five people with a low calibre weapon requiring multiple shots for some if not all victims.  Two kids could run and hide. Three adults could cooperate and coordinate a fight-back.  Under what curcumstances would he find himself needing to attack Sheila's right arm with his nails?  (i.e. IF I'm right - as you have stated).

What did she do - go to bed with one drop earring in?  Or did she never properly retire?

Where did I say he was committing a crime by telling me anything? I don't get what you mean.

Committing any crime is risky - you might get caught but people do so every day.  Sheila would have had only one less person to deal with and you have her not only killing people with the same low caliber weapon but in physical combat with both adults. At which point did June and Sheila fight? Before Sheila got the gun? Would June just toddle off to bed after being battered by her daughter and what was Nevil doing - Oh that's right, his contribution was to 'call Jeremy' Nah!

As for the marks and earrings, I haven't seen these for myself and I'm not convinced. But if marks exist, you have no idea what caused them, you're surmising they were caused by finger nails but like I said, I'm not convinced.

[Roch]

Where did I say he was committing a crime by telling me anything? I don't get what you mean.

Committing any crime is risky - you might get caught but people do so every day.  Sheila would have had only one less person to deal with and you have her not only killing people with the same low caliber weapon but in physical combat with both adults. At which point did June and Sheila fight? Before Sheila got the gun? Would June just toddle off to bed after being battered by her daughter and what was Nevil doing - Oh that's right, his contribution was to 'call Jeremy' Nah!

As for the marks and earrings, I haven't seen these for myself and I'm not convinced. But if marks exist, you have no idea what caused them, you're surmising they were caused by finger nails but like I said, I'm not convinced.

You're not convinced - but you are at least aware it is a possibility.

I think attempts were made to either prise a weapon from her grip or to impede her from being able to aim and fire it.  There would have been panic and terror while this was taking place.  Somebody also yanked Sheila's neck chain from behind.  I think her drop earring became dislodged forcefully, possibly causing her ear to swell.  I think Sheila thrust her hand across June's throat, forcing June's head backwards and causing a gash on June's chin with her thumbnail.  The gash is a large crimson blemish with a line through it.  I think that physically, June was no match for Sheila and was overpowered when attempting to thwart Sheila in her rage.  That would only leave one adult to deal with and Sheila had retained the armed weapon.  I cannot see Nevill trying to shoot his own daughter with another weapon.  He would be left in a desperate situation trying to subdue his own daughter who was armed.  Perhaps he had no previous experience of Sheila actually turning on him. 

What if she went downstairs to get the gun; with Nevill dozing in his chair after a nightcap; and June still asleep upstairs?  By the time Sheila has gone back upstairs to kill the twins with the weapon - she is confronted by June, who has awoke due to an initial commotion downstairs between Sheila and Nevill?

[lookout]

Sadly,it's not difficult to overpower elderly people especially if they've been taken unawares,and particularly brandishing a gun.

[Caroline]

You're not convinced - but you are at least aware it is a possibility.

I think attempts were made to either prise a weapon from her grip or to impede her from being able to aim and fire it.  There would have been panic and terror while this was taking place.  Somebody also yanked Sheila's neck chain from behind.  I think her drop earring became dislodged forcefully, possibly causing her ear to swell.  I think Sheila thrust her hand across June's throat, forcing June's head backwards and causing a gash on June's chin with her thumbnail.  The gash is a large crimson blemish with a line through it.  I think that physically, June was no match for Sheila and was overpowered when attempting to thwart Sheila in her rage.  That would only leave one adult to deal with and Sheila had retained the armed weapon.  I cannot see Nevill trying to shoot his own daughter with another weapon.  He would be left in a desperate situation trying to subdue his own daughter who was armed.  Perhaps he had no previous experience of Sheila actually turning on him. 

What if she went downstairs to get the gun; with Nevill dozing in his chair after a nightcap; and June still asleep upstairs?  By the time Sheila has gone back upstairs to kill the twins with the weapon - she is confronted by June, who has awoke due to an initial commotion downstairs between Sheila and Nevill?

OK, someone 'yanked her chain'? Unless you or whoever told you this was there, how the hell would they/you know that?

Beng a female I KNOW that drop earrings wouldn't be worn after being changed for bed, I am sure the other women on the forum will confirm this?

Perhaps they tried to get the rifle from Jeremy and he forced June's head back but what kind of nails do you think Sheila had, were they maufactured by Wilkinson Sword?

June, Sheila and Nevil were no match for Jeremy - you have too many what if's and nothing you have said, leaves Jeremy an innocent man. In some respects, it's worse for him.

[lookout]

3 on to one----JB would have been a dead man. Especially a young woman guarding her children,would be like a lioness,with nails to match.

Just reading Ferguson's ws. He'd stated that he " couldn't understand " what Sheila meant when she'd described herself as having a " Madness complex " ? He was a psychiatrist,wasn't he ??

[Roch]

OK, someone 'yanked her chain'? Unless you or whoever told you this was there, how the hell would they/you know that?

Beng a female I KNOW that drop earrings wouldn't be worn after being changed for bed, I am sure the other women on the forum will confirm this?

Perhaps they tried to get the rifle from Jeremy and he forced June's head back but what kind of nails do you think Sheila had, were they maufactured by Wilkinson Sword?

June, Sheila and Nevil were no match for Jeremy - you have too many what if's and nothing you have said, leaves Jeremy an innocent man. In some respects, it's worse for him.

I think a thumbnail is capable of causing an indentation in somebody's chin, if pressed hard enough (for example in a life or death struggle). 

I would argue that if all three victims had fight / defence wounds, not all of which have been disclosed or discussed in the legal arena, and Jeremy had no such injuries, then that cannot logically equate to things looking 'worse' for Jeremy.

Regarding the drop earrings, I think it's unlikely she would go to bed with one still in.  Perhaps she prevaricated about what to do and never properly prepared for bed.  Who knows what torment was going through her mind?  It would make more sense for her to embark upon the killing spree with no jewellery that could be grabbed by the victims.  But she was not acting as a rational person was she?

[Caroline]

I think a thumbnail is capable of causing an indentation in somebody's chin, if pressed hard enough (for example in a life or death struggle). 

I would argue that if all three victims had fight / defence wounds, not all of which have been disclosed or discussed in the legal arena, and Jeremy had no such injuries, then that cannot logically equate to things looking 'worse' for Jeremy.

Regarding the drop earrings, I think it's unlikely she would go to bed with one still in.  Perhaps she prevaricated about what to do and never properly prepared for bed.  Who knows what torment was going through her mind?  It would make more sense for her to embark upon the killing spree with no jewellery that could be grabbed by the victims.  But she was not acting as a rational person was she?

IF they had defence wounds? I thought you said you KNEW they had?

I think this is getting  abit sill now, what is the point of discussing things that other than you, no one else has seen/has knowledge of, other than what you are saying? It's really just a matter of having blind faith in someone we don't know really that well and although I believe that you are an honest person, you fly in the face of all that I believe and to coin a phrase from Lookout "I don't do" blind faith.

[Roch]

IF they had defence wounds? I thought you said you KNEW they had?

I think this is getting  abit sill now, what is the point of discussing things that other than you, no one else has seen/has knowledge of, other than what you are saying? It's really just a matter of having blind faith in someone we don't know really that well and although I believe that you are an honest person, you fly in the face of all that I believe and to coin a phrase from Lookout "I don't do" blind faith.

My use of the term 'if' was just a figure of speech.  It wasnt intended to place doubt on the wounds.  The wounds on the back of her hand that were temporarily posted up, were visible to those with an open mind. 

Unfortunately, developments in understanding of the case have long outgrown the poor equality images we are saddled with on the forum.  It has created an imbalance in the ability of the forum to debate the case properly.

[Caroline]

My use of the term 'if' was just a figure of speech.  It wasnt intended to place doubt on the wounds.  The wounds on the back of her hand that were temporarily posted up, were visible to those with an open mind. 

Unfortunately, developments in understanding of the case have long outgrown the poor equality images we are saddled with on the forum.  It has created an imbalance in the ability of the forum to debate the case properly.

Well that's really just tantamount to you saying "I know something you don't know" and keep claiming it just gets a bit irritating. Sorry Roch, you know I like you but I see no pint in this.

[JackieD]

OK, someone 'yanked her chain'? Unless you or whoever told you this was there, how the hell would they/you know that?

Beng a female I KNOW that drop earrings wouldn't be worn after being changed for bed, I am sure the other women on the forum will confirm this?

Perhaps they tried to get the rifle from Jeremy and he forced June's head back but what kind of nails do you think Sheila had, were they maufactured by Wilkinson Sword?

June, Sheila and Nevil were no match for Jeremy - you have too many what if's and nothing you have said, leaves Jeremy an innocent man. In some respects, it's worse for him.

Likewise Caroline you have failed you show ANY evidence that shows Jeremy is guilty
All your reasons are suppositions and you continue to ignore how sick Sheila was and many people with the same illness have carried out violent acts
One day I hope this case will help awareness for people suffering so badly with mental health problems

Sheila never stood a chance, with June's illness and an unsympathetic Colin
Your arguments have always been weak

[lookout]

Sheila had only 4 days left of her previous injection ( last one was 11th July ) and as stated in Ferguson's ws,her vulnerability to anxiety,restlessness and everything else that went with her condition would have been evident,more so with her having smoked cannabis on the couple of days before the tragedy.
He'd stated not in as many words that he'd been against her discharge that year and would have preferred her to have gone to St.Mary's NHS hospital for further treatment.
Sheila's reason for wanting to get out of the clinic earlier was that she was waiting to meet her birth mother who she said wouldn't have wanted to see her in hospital.
Sheila must literally have " held it together " while meeting Christine-------but it hadn't done anyone a favour really,had it ?

[Roch]

Well that's really just tantamount to you saying "I know something you don't know" and keep claiming it just gets a bit irritating. Sorry Roch, you know I like you but I see no pint in this.

I can usually see a pint in most things  . Well I have tried to share what I've found out. It's just that it's not want some people want hear.  Like trying to sell hotdogs to vegans.  On top of that, the images issue really does not help with debate - but this is something out of all our hands. I do believe some are using the poor quality images as something to hide behind and bury their head in the sand.

[Steve_uk]

Sheila had only 4 days left of her previous injection ( last one was 11th July ) and as stated in Ferguson's ws,her vulnerability to anxiety,restlessness and everything else that went with her condition would have been evident,more so with her having smoked cannabis on the couple of days before the tragedy.
He'd stated not in as many words that he'd been against her discharge that year and would have preferred her to have gone to St.Mary's NHS hospital for further treatment.
Sheila's reason for wanting to get out of the clinic earlier was that she was waiting to meet her birth mother who she said wouldn't have wanted to see her in hospital.
Sheila must literally have " held it together " while meeting Christine-------but it hadn't done anyone a favour really,had it ?

I understand why the Defence wishes to highlight Sheila's illness and her plight because it's their strongest card. She was discharged from hospital in March 1985, some four months before the murders, after which time there are conflicting reports of her demeanour. I think by this stage she had become worn down by the vicissitudes of daily life and began for the first time to harbour resentment against other individuals, the "all people are bad and should be killed" remark just one example of this.

We will never fully know her state of mind those last few days, but the need to lash out, as exemplified in her marital relationship with Colin was symptomatic of a young woman who had gone through the motions of existence, her life planned out by others, with no real emotional security as she faced the harsh realities of employment in 1980s Britain, her talents overlooked, her intrinsic worth undervalued as she realized her financial dependence on the woman who disturbed her equilibrium the most: June. Impossible to fulfil her expectations she sank back in herself, condemned to a state of limbo as the world passed her by.