Author Topic: mugford rwb and the order of death.  (Read 42519 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #210 on: October 14, 2017, 08:09:PM »
My reason for asking was that June had been insistent on seeing the twins before their forthcoming holiday. Had June been as insistent on other occasions ?
Had June envisaged a tragedy ? When did she write her letter to the family,to be read on her death,though the twins hadn't been included in her letter ? June had been a healthy woman,and even if she'd written her letter before the twins were born there was nothing to say that she'd have died before anyone else. Was there ?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #211 on: October 14, 2017, 08:19:PM »
My reason for asking was that June had been insistent on seeing the twins before their forthcoming holiday. Had June been as insistent on other occasions ?
Had June envisaged a tragedy ? When did she write her letter to the family,to be read on her death,though the twins hadn't been included in her letter ? June had been a healthy woman,and even if she'd written her letter before the twins were born there was nothing to say that she'd have died before anyone else. Was there ?
A little misleading as she'd been in St. Andrew's twice as a patient. I think she sensed the atmosphere: both children going through the motions, neither on her wavelength, though both dependent financially on her. She realized towards the end that her expectations had been too high and her self-flagellation evident in the letter was typical of her basic Christian beliefs, as she finally tried to make amends.

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #212 on: October 14, 2017, 08:28:PM »
A little misleading as she'd been in St. Andrew's twice as a patient. I think she sensed the atmosphere: both children going through the motions, neither on her wavelength, though both dependent financially on her. She realized towards the end that her expectations had been too high and her self-flagellation evident in the letter was typical of her basic Christian beliefs, as she finally tried to make amends.






If the letter had been written before the twins were born,  June wouldn't have been old at all. It's not what someone in good health would really consider,except for perhaps an inclusion when writing their will but not usually as a separate entity.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #213 on: October 14, 2017, 08:32:PM »





If the letter had been written before the twins were born,  June wouldn't have been old at all. It's not what someone in good health would really consider,except for perhaps an inclusion when writing their will but not usually as a separate entity.
It was written towards the end of her life as she reminisced perhaps a little too sentimentally on times gone by.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #214 on: October 14, 2017, 08:34:PM »
My reason for asking was that June had been insistent on seeing the twins before their forthcoming holiday. Had June been as insistent on other occasions ?
Had June envisaged a tragedy ? When did she write her letter to the family,to be read on her death,though the twins hadn't been included in her letter ? June had been a healthy woman,and even if she'd written her letter before the twins were born there was nothing to say that she'd have died before anyone else. Was there ?

Well, "insistent" maybe too strong a word. As grandparents I'd have thought it pretty natural for them to want to see the boys before their holiday. I imagine they had enough control of Sheila for her to arrange visits when they were 'invited'.
We don't know, despite that you frequently remind us of her visits to her doctor, how ill -or not- June actually was. She appeared to be a fully functioning member of society. She ran her home. She shopped. She drove. She was a church warden. She oversaw various church activities. She was a busy, busy woman, none of which equates with a depressive. Maybe it was no more than low level anxiety. Maybe she was a hypochondriac. We can speculate from here to eternity but I doubt we'll ever know when she wrote that letter.

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #215 on: October 14, 2017, 08:35:PM »
Also,murder/suicides are mainly committed where there are children involved when/if either partner feels that they're getting a bad deal as regards visiting,etc.
Such a tragedy has taken place in Australia where a wife wanted her husband out of the property and it had been school holiday time where the husband thought his wife would relent until the children returned to school,but that hadn't been an option and the husband gassed the family and killed himself.
So very tragic and so avoidable.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2017, 08:53:PM »
Also,murder/suicides are mainly committed where there are children involved when/if either partner feels that they're getting a bad deal as regards visiting,etc.
Such a tragedy has taken place in Australia where a wife wanted her husband out of the property and it had been school holiday time where the husband thought his wife would relent until the children returned to school,but that hadn't been an option and the husband gassed the family and killed himself.
So very tragic and so avoidable.

Really, no single one of these tragedies is any more sad than another. Depression happens. If the patient is lucky enough to live in an area where the correct medication is used in combination with therapy in a safe and caring environment, they'll stand a greater chance of making a full recovery than in places where care is sporadic. However, as a rule of thumb, if someone is determined to commit suicide, they will. NOT just because they feel life isn't worth living. It could be revenge.  It could be a desire to make someone feel guilty. It could be fear. It's often those who are left behind who suffer most the effects of someone's suicide.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2017, 09:17:PM »
Well, "insistent" maybe too strong a word. As grandparents I'd have thought it pretty natural for them to want to see the boys before their holiday. I imagine they had enough control of Sheila for her to arrange visits when they were 'invited'.
We don't know, despite that you frequently remind us of her visits to her doctor, how ill -or not- June actually was. She appeared to be a fully functioning member of society. She ran her home. She shopped. She drove. She was a church warden. She oversaw various church activities. She was a busy, busy woman, none of which equates with a depressive. Maybe it was no more than low level anxiety. Maybe she was a hypochondriac. We can speculate from here to eternity but I doubt we'll ever know when she wrote that letter.
In CAL's book we get:

"In the car he told me he didn't like being threatened and that I scared him," Julie remembered. She picked up an envelope from the cassette compartment but he took it off her. "He told me that it was from his mother June and was to be opened in the event of her death. He told me it had been written recently and was a letter apologizing for the way his mother had sometimes treated him. He said that his mother loved him, but he said that it didn't make any difference about the way he felt about her."

This tallies with Jeremy telling Julie that his parents had "forfeited the right to live" for the way he had been treated. One can only surmise that he blamed his mother for the break up of his relationship with Suzette and possibly even the miscarriages due to stress, whilst Sheila had produced two healthy young boys, who seemed the apple of June's eye. Nevill gave orders to be followed on the commencement of each working day, which Jeremy tolerated in the cannabis-filled haze of the tractor, longing for the moment when he could escape to the bright lights of London.

I think something just snapped in Jeremy as he sought a way out of his predicament. The eight wasted years at Gresham's came back to haunt him as he realized his lowly social status amongst his work colleagues, and he was determined not to grow old prematurely, which is what he discerned when he looked around his environs. Maybe he was taken for granted as a skivvy on the Farm, his only pleasure in the workplace in bending the rules with his flowery garb and cosmetics, but his portal to absconsion was evil personified. It entailed the loss of two bright, young lives, twins mature beyond their years who would have remained firm and constant friends throughout life's journey, the destruction of two people who deserved to wind down in their twilight years with their own gratifications, and a mother who desperately needed care, not the barbaric annihilation that was to become her fate. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6961.0.html
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:18:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2017, 09:28:PM »
That letter as far as I can remember didn't go into any detail,individually and certainly hadn't contained anything specific about Jeremy at all. It had been a short note to Nevill,Sheila and Jeremy and began with " Darlings ". I have a copy of it somewhere.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #219 on: October 14, 2017, 09:33:PM »
That letter as far as I can remember didn't go into any detail,individually and certainly hadn't contained anything specific about Jeremy at all. It had been a short note to Nevill,Sheila and Jeremy and began with " Darlings ". I have a copy of it somewhere.
Yes it's here on #75: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3323.75

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #220 on: October 14, 2017, 09:37:PM »
Yes it's here on #75: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3323.75







That's it,but it made no reference to Jeremy or behaviour etc.

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #221 on: October 14, 2017, 09:37:PM »
In CAL's book we get:

"In the car he told me he didn't like being threatened and that I scared him," Julie remembered. She picked up an envelope from the cassette compartment but he took it off her. "He told me that it was from his mother June and was to be opened in the event of her death. He told me it had been written recently and was a letter apologizing for the way his mother had sometimes treated him. He said that his mother loved him, but he said that it didn't make any difference about the way he felt about her."

This tallies with Jeremy telling Julie that his parents had "forfeited the right to live" for the way he had been treated. One can only surmise that he blamed his mother for the break up of his relationship with Suzette and possibly even the miscarriages due to stress, whilst Sheila had produced two healthy young boys, who seemed the apple of June's eye. Nevill gave orders to be followed on the commencement of each working day, which Jeremy tolerated in the cannabis-filled haze of the tractor, longing for the moment when he could escape to the bright lights of London.

I think something just snapped in Jeremy as he sought a way out of his predicament. The eight wasted years at Gresham's came back to haunt him as he realized his lowly social status amongst his work colleagues, and he was determined not to grow old prematurely, which is what he discerned when he looked around his environs. Maybe he was taken for granted as a skivvy on the Farm, his only pleasure in the workplace in bending the rules with his flowery garb and cosmetics, but his portal to absconsion was evil personified. It entailed the loss of two bright, young lives, twins mature beyond their years who would have remained firm and constant friends throughout life's journey, the destruction of two people who deserved to wind down in their twilight years with their own gratifications, and a mother who desperately needed care, not the barbaric annihilation that was to become her fate. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6961.0.html

Your last paragraph paints an excellent word picture of how I think he felt. I think he probably did feel he had no higher status on the farm than a skivvy -although he tried to present himself as a gentleman farmer- and I think he probably saw an unending future of the same old, stretching out before him as he grew into maturity and middle age before he received his inheritance. It doesn't have to be how things were. It's about how he saw them as being.

Offline David1819

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #222 on: October 14, 2017, 09:39:PM »
In CAL's book we get:

"In the car he told me he didn't like being threatened and that I scared him," Julie remembered. She picked up an envelope from the cassette compartment but he took it off her. "He told me that it was from his mother June and was to be opened in the event of her death. He told me it had been written recently and was a letter apologizing for the way his mother had sometimes treated him. He said that his mother loved him, but he said that it didn't make any difference about the way he felt about her."

This tallies with Jeremy telling Julie that his parents had "forfeited the right to live" for the way he had been treated. One can only surmise that he blamed his mother for the break up of his relationship with Suzette and possibly even the miscarriages due to stress, whilst Sheila had produced two healthy young boys, who seemed the apple of June's eye. Nevill gave orders to be followed on the commencement of each working day, which Jeremy tolerated in the cannabis-filled haze of the tractor, longing for the moment when he could escape to the bright lights of London.

I think something just snapped in Jeremy as he sought a way out of his predicament. The eight wasted years at Gresham's came back to haunt him as he realized his lowly social status amongst his work colleagues, and he was determined not to grow old prematurely, which is what he discerned when he looked around his environs. Maybe he was taken for granted as a skivvy on the Farm, his only pleasure in the workplace in bending the rules with his flowery garb and cosmetics, but his portal to absconsion was evil personified. It entailed the loss of two bright, young lives, twins mature beyond their years who would have remained firm and constant friends throughout life's journey, the destruction of two people who deserved to wind down in their twilight years with their own gratifications, and a mother who desperately needed care, not the barbaric annihilation that was to become her fate. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6961.0.html


 ::)

« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:40:PM by David1819 »

Offline Jane

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #223 on: October 14, 2017, 09:40:PM »
Yes it's here on #75: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3323.75

I wonder how he knew it to have been written recently?

Offline lookout

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Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #224 on: October 14, 2017, 09:44:PM »
Well he hasn't snapped at the thought of being fleeced and swindled out of his inheritance as many would have done,so it proves to me that he's never been in the habit of snapping.
Who knows,his huge loss could well have been the making of him and his success but he wasn't even given the chance.