Author Topic: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm  (Read 129188 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1320 on: October 21, 2017, 10:04:AM »
You mean they put their hand to her neck to feel for a pulse and the thumb happened to touch the running blood and smear it?

The blood has run on top of the smear so it was still running when that happened. I don't know how long she would have bled from a wound which was pretty much instantly fatal.






Sheila would have been dead,but if it was a thumb mark,it would indicate that she hadn't been dead for that long for someone to have bothered feeling for a pulse. Sheila wouldn't have bled for long and all you'd have seen would have been collected blood as opposed to it being pumped out.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1321 on: October 21, 2017, 10:34:AM »
I don't understand. "area which appears to be blood all around" because its exactly that.

Yes, but why? I can understand the blood being smeared to Sheila's left because something smeared it, but why is there a blood stain to her right extending beyond the run of blood?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1322 on: October 21, 2017, 10:38:AM »





Sheila would have been dead,but if it was a thumb mark,it would indicate that she hadn't been dead for that long for someone to have bothered feeling for a pulse. Sheila wouldn't have bled for long and all you'd have seen would have been collected blood as opposed to it being pumped out.

So if it was a thumb mark, someone tested for a pulse within seconds of the fatal shot. The blood then continued to run in a stream over the top of the smear.

Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1323 on: October 21, 2017, 10:47:AM »
So if it was a thumb mark, someone tested for a pulse within seconds of the fatal shot. The blood then continued to run in a stream over the top of the smear.






It would have done,yes. Blood will continue to run.

Offline Harry

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1324 on: June 29, 2018, 06:34:AM »
It is claimed that after Sheila received the first shot, she managed to get blood from the resulting wound upon her arm at several places.  These drops of blood from her wound somehow formed streams upon her arm. 

In the position that Sheila would have originally been in after having received the first gunshot wound -  how would she have had to move her arm, in order for the drops of blood to land at the positions shown in the crime scene images?  Has anybody tried to replicate this movement with their own arm / neck?








After the blood had dripped upon her arm (bearing in mind that this is supposed to have happened at all the places shown) - how did she keep her arm at an even level and avoid any arm rotation so that the blood drops nearly all travel in same direction on her lower arm / wrist?

Pathologists generally give explanations assuming that information given to them by the police is honest and accurate. In this case the police are involved in a cover up of the real truth, so a pathologist might come to wrong conclusions through having been mislead.

Bernard Knight said that Sheila could not have fallen back immediately after the first wound, because the blood running down her arms indicated that she had remained in a sitting position for a few minutes after the first shot.

But what if she had fallen back immediately and lay unconscious for a while before getting up again? Suppose she put her right hand to the wound straight after getting up and kept it there for a while as she made her way upstairs. That would answer the question as to why the blood trails on her arm are consistent with the arm remaining in the same position. There might be an absence of blood on the front of her dress because the blood ran down her right arm.

It's notable that the blobs at the end of the trails are higher up the arm than where the trails seem to originate. That proves that the hand must have been raised. It does not merely suggest that it might have been. The law of gravity doesn't allow for exceptions like rivers flowing up hills instead of down. Sheila's hand must have been raised while the blood was flowing "down" her wrist towards her elbow.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 06:35:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1325 on: June 29, 2018, 06:49:AM »
Pathologists generally give explanations assuming that information given to them by the police is honest and accurate. In this case the police are involved in a cover up of the real truth, so a pathologist might come to wrong conclusions through having been mislead.

Bernard Knight said that Sheila could not have fallen back immediately after the first wound, because the blood running down her arms indicated that she had remained in a sitting position for a few minutes after the first shot.

But what if she had fallen back immediately and lay unconscious for a while before getting up again? Suppose she put her right hand to the wound straight after getting up and kept it there for a while as she made her way upstairs. That would answer the question as to why the blood trails on her arm are consistent with the arm remaining in the same position. There might be an absence of blood on the front of her dress because the blood ran down her right arm.

It's notable that the blobs at the end of the trails are higher up the arm than where the trails seem to originate. That proves that the hand must have been raised. It does not merely suggest that it might have been. The law of gravity doesn't allow for exceptions like rivers flowing up hills instead of down. Sheila's hand must have been raised while the blood was flowing "down" her wrist towards her elbow.





Peter Vanezis  said that a person with such an injury might be able to get up and move around. He had only one objection to that possibility, which was the lack of blood down the front of the nightdress.

Q. Can I ask you this: The non-
fatal wound - the lower one - you have told us lacerated the external jugular
vein; how freely would you expect that wound and how rapidly, would you expect
it to bleed?

A. It would start to bleed immediately. It is venous blood,
rather than arterial blood, so it would not be pumping blood out. The size of
the wound, which is fairly small, compared with some of the larger missiles, would
also tend to cause external signs of bleeding to occur that bit less fast, shall
we say, than if it was a larger wound, but then one would see the haemorrhage
tracking on the inside of the neck. There would be quite a big build up there,
as there was in the hemorrhage on that side of the neck.

Q. Looking at the amount of blood staining that you saw there and the wound that you
saw that accounted for it, are you able to give any view as to whether the victim
could, for instance, have got up between the two, walked around -

A. Sorry, are you finishing there?

Q. Yes, I will finish there for the moment?

A. Well, a wound like that, as I said,
has not hit any vital organ as such, although it has caused hemorrhage. There
is no reason why the person ...... that is why some people in fact: do get up and
walk around with such injuries, but quite clearly if one walks around with such
injuries, then one would see quite a lot of blood distributed or coming from that
wound, unless the person held the hand to the actual entry wound itself and tried
to stop the blood coming out.


Too much depends on one fact. The lack of blood down the front of the dress. There could be a rational explanation for that, but one which conflicts with the opinion that both shots were fired within 10 seconds


Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1326 on: June 29, 2018, 09:51:AM »


Peter Vanezis  said that a person with such an injury might be able to get up and move around. He had only one objection to that possibility, which was the lack of blood down the front of the nightdress.

Q. Can I ask you this: The non-
fatal wound - the lower one - you have told us lacerated the external jugular
vein; how freely would you expect that wound and how rapidly, would you expect
it to bleed?

A. It would start to bleed immediately. It is venous blood,
rather than arterial blood, so it would not be pumping blood out. The size of
the wound, which is fairly small, compared with some of the larger missiles, would
also tend to cause external signs of bleeding to occur that bit less fast, shall
we say, than if it was a larger wound, but then one would see the haemorrhage
tracking on the inside of the neck. There would be quite a big build up there,
as there was in the hemorrhage on that side of the neck.

Q. Looking at the amount of blood staining that you saw there and the wound that you
saw that accounted for it, are you able to give any view as to whether the victim
could, for instance, have got up between the two, walked around -

A. Sorry, are you finishing there?

Q. Yes, I will finish there for the moment?

A. Well, a wound like that, as I said,
has not hit any vital organ as such, although it has caused hemorrhage. There
is no reason why the person ...... that is why some people in fact: do get up and
walk around with such injuries, but quite clearly if one walks around with such
injuries, then one would see quite a lot of blood distributed or coming from that
wound, unless the person held the hand to the actual entry wound itself and tried
to stop the blood coming out.


Too much depends on one fact. The lack of blood down the front of the dress. There could be a rational explanation for that, but one which conflicts with the opinion that both shots were fired within 10 seconds

But in over 30 years, no one has thought of one.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1327 on: June 29, 2018, 10:10:AM »
That Sheila hadn't had her nightdress on before the 2nd shot ?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1328 on: June 29, 2018, 11:26:AM »
That Sheila hadn't had her nightdress on before the 2nd shot ?

That's more than a convenient theory lookout but the blood would have ran down her chest instead. Unless she had a shower between shots?  ;D
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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1329 on: June 29, 2018, 11:34:AM »
That's more than a convenient theory lookout but the blood would have ran down her chest instead. Unless she had a shower between shots?  ;D






No,not really a convenient theory,more a logical one considering that she had no drawers on too and there'd been no mention of blood down her body ? Like there was no mention of her being anything but " clean " ?

Then the possibility of her having showered would be all the more believable before putting on her nightdress. Also another reason for the showerhead to have been on the floor of the bathroom.

Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1330 on: June 29, 2018, 11:36:AM »
Which again would have accounted for the blood spots around her body ( and not June's as I'd once said )

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1331 on: June 29, 2018, 11:37:AM »





No,not really a convenient theory,more a logical one considering that she had no drawers on too and there'd been no mention of blood down her body ? Like there was no mention of her being anything but " clean " ?

Then the possibility of her having showered would be all the more believable before putting on her nightdress. Also another reason for the showerhead to have been on the floor of the bathroom.

Between shots?  ;D
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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1332 on: June 29, 2018, 11:55:AM »
Between shots?  ;D






Yes,if Vanezis had stated that Sheila could have got up and walked around after the first shot,there's no reason that she couldn't have thrown on a nightdress after a hurried spray.

That's if Vanezis was correct in saying that--------but I would have disputed it. Alternatively,possibly after previously showering before that second shot with nightdress at the ready she'd have managed to throw her nightdress on-----with difficulty because I believe it had to be pulled down on account of her probably struggling to put it on properly before the following shot.


My other thought has been that both shots were simultaneous-------with no " walking about " and that the spots of blood had belonged to June.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1333 on: June 29, 2018, 12:36:PM »

Yes,if Vanezis had stated that Sheila could have got up and walked around after the first shot,there's no reason that she couldn't have thrown on a nightdress after a hurried spray.

That's if Vanezis was correct in saying that--------but I would have disputed it. Alternatively,possibly after previously showering before that second shot with nightdress at the ready she'd have managed to throw her nightdress on-----with difficulty because I believe it had to be pulled down on account of her probably struggling to put it on properly before the following shot.


My other thought has been that both shots were simultaneous-------with no " walking about " and that the spots of blood had belonged to June.

I think this is tantamount to flogging a dead horse.
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Offline lookout

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Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
« Reply #1334 on: June 29, 2018, 12:57:PM »
I think this is tantamount to flogging a dead horse.






I don't think that " flogging a dead horse " comes into the latest findings. You're describing the snail-like tactics of the CCRC I think and the judicial system in general.