Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[guest7363]

I'm with you Justice, I don't see it either but I DO SEE that Venezis didn't mention any abrasions or cuts on Sheila's hand/arm but mentioned old scars and went into great detail about those on Nevil's body. There is a cloud in the sky that looks a bit like an elephant - it's still a cloud though! 

The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.

[Caroline]

I didn't say that he was - however - I am not 100% that his notes are 100% genuine. 

I feel the same way about Juie Mugford's 'diary'.

I am 100% certain that they are, but once again, for you to be right, another piece of evidence had to be engineered because you have no explanation why he would leave such abrasions out of his notes because in fact, he wouldn't.

Mugford didn't ever state that she kept a diary of events as they unfolded, the diary was written after the events.

[Caroline]

The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.

Yes, if it's there, I'd like to see it. Clearly there is no pictures that shows with 100% clarity that they are cuts or that picture would have been posted. I can see how people might believe they are cuts but the evidence doesn't support that - at all.

[guest7363]

The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.

Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off

[David1819]

I have to agree with you David, Vanezis performed the autopsy when it was thought Sheila had committed the murders and took her own life, also I cannot pick up anywhere in his hand written notes where he mentions cuts/grazing to Sheila, I must say though I can't read it all.

I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.

[Roch]

Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off

But that's the whole point isn't it.  We dont know how clear the photographs were at trial.  They cannot have been crystal clear close-ups - otherwise Drake and Arlidge simply wouldn't have been able to facilitate the choreographed questioning of Vanezis regarding smears. 

Several weeks ago, several people pm'd me to state they could not believe that there were members trying to say the marks on the back of her hand were not nail gouges and were in fact just smears.  It cannot be a coincidence that the members who were denying the gouges - are all hardline guilters?

[Roch]

I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.

No I understood you perfectly.  That being said - he also cooperated with police to conceal her wounds - nicks, incisions, gouges, scrapes, abrasions.  Jeremy Bamber could not have been convicted if Sheila Caffell can be shown to have such wounds - as it would bring in to play the prospect of a fight between all three adults in the farmhouse. 

As I tried to imtimate before - perhaps he played a double game?  People are complex and some have consciences that gnaw at them.  Miller, for example, was in the thick of all the wrong doing - and yet apparently he became an advocate for human rights.  Private penance?

[guest7363]

I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.

What I was agreeing to, I thought Vanezis gave a honest autopsy, how you interpret his autopsy is another thing, I didn't misunderstand you I meerley pointed out the autopsy was carried out when it was suspected murder suicide.

[Jane]

Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off

Reading what's being said here by some -the vicious besmirching of the names of all those associated with Jeremy's conviction- I can only think they've been gripped by a virulent paranoia. Accusations of an expert witness, of no small standing, jeopardizing his future by falsifying notes and allegedly covering up/hiding from the jury the existence of potentially significant wounds whilst taking the trouble to highlight minor marks for ANY reason, let alone for NO reason, is beyond comprehension.

[Roch]

Reading what's being said here by some -the vicious besmirching of the names of all those associated with Jeremy's conviction- I can only think they've been gripped by a virulent paranoia. Accusations of an expert witness, of no small standing, jeopardizing his future by falsifying notes and allegedly covering up/hiding from the jury the existence of potentially significant wounds whilst taking the trouble to highlight minor marks for ANY reason, let alone for NO reason, is beyond comprehension.

Jane, you are sarting to sound like you have stepped of an Enid Blyton story.  Five go mad in Tolleshunt D'Arcy

The local Vicar is a paragon of virtue (no sexual foibles - not even any saucy nun jokes).  The police constable cycles through the village keeping a watchful eye over any would be miscreants (outsiders).  Tea and iced buns in the afternoon etc.

[guest7363]

But that's the whole point isn't it.  We dont know how clear the photographs were at trial.  They cannot have been crystal clear close-ups - otherwise Drake and Arlidge simply wouldn't have been able to facilitate the choreographed questioning of Vanezis regarding smears. 

Several weeks ago, several people pm'd me to state they could not believe that there were members trying to say the marks on the back of her hand were not nail gouges and were in fact just smears.  It cannot be a coincidence that the members who were denying the gouges - are all hardline guilters?

Well credit due to the posters who can see what I and the jury and Vanezis and other posters fail to see.  So even though they cannot believe we cannot see them, please excuse me for passing them off for smears because it's not through thinking Bamber guilty.

[Adam]

The 'case related photographs' thread on this forum has 40 pictures of Sheila. There are no scratches on her feet, legs, shoulders, arms, hands, neck & face.

After 32 years supporters are now saying the blood smears on her hand are scratches.

Some supporters agree there are no visible scratches in the photographs & claim they are all underneath her undamaged nightie.

The pathologist inspected Sheila minus her nightie & reported no scratches. He is now being accused of lying.

[Jane]

Jane, you are sarting to sound like you have stepped of an Enid Blyton story.  Five go mad in Tolleshunt D'Arcy

The local Vicar is a paragon of virtue (no sexual foibles - not even any saucy nun jokes).  The police constable cycles through the village keeping a watchful eye over any would be miscreants (outsiders).  Tea and iced buns in the afternoon etc.

Then, as I fully accept that we're all coloured by our own frames of reference, I can only wonder at the dark, dirty and devious ones which may have coloured yours. I actually do know Vicars who are paragons of virtue and policemen I can trust. I'm truly sorry that your world is devoid of them.

[Adam]

To be fair Vanesis has to be included in the industrial frame.

I just can't understand how it would have benefitted Bamber if he had said Sheila had scratches when the prosecution could display photos which would have discredited this.

[Roch]

Well credit due to the posters who can see what I and the jury and Vanezis and other posters fail to see.  So even though they cannot believe we cannot see them, please excuse me for passing them off for smears because it's not through thinking Bamber guilty.

You cannot say the jurors failed to see - because you do not know what images they were shown.  They cannot have been shown clear close-up images of gouges.  This would have defeated the object of putting Bamber on trial in the first place. 

How does a smear related to a neck wound, start or end at a crescent-like incision?