The rifle in the window.

[lookout]

There have been cases where armed police have been over-zealous,with one being very recent where a drunken man was holding hostage his wife and children. The man was shot dead by police.Why not tasered instead ?
Then there was the man running through a station in London,Jean Charles de Menezes.
Many have been shot over the years.

[Jane]

I don't understand. If June and Sheila were found on the bed then are you saying June was shot and then wandered around the room bleeding including to the other side of the bed and then got back into bed again to die? I am not trying to query what you saw but it does all not really make sense ? Did the police check the blood grouping on the carpet?

I agree there is something odd in that main room as how come the parcel on the chair did not get disturbed the shoes were not disturbed ? How come the chairs were neatly in place ?  Was the blood on June's nightdress tested ? was it all hers ?

I, too, would love to know the answer to the question you raise re June and Sheila being found together on the bed. I feel sure you'll agree that, as no acceptable answer has ever been forthcoming, belief is suspended.

[lookout]

Suspended rather than Dismissed.

[Jan]

I, too, would love to know the answer to the question you raise re June and Sheila being found together on the bed. I feel sure you'll agree that, as no acceptable answer has ever been forthcoming, belief is suspended.

Like I said I am always asking questions . But there are definitely things in that room that don't make sense


Let's just take the initial call IF jeremy is innocent he could have assumed that his father meant Sheila because of her illness and yet there is June with all that blood on her nightdress and we don't really know the whole sequence of what happened to this day ? Who fought who? Why was Sheila's bed not slept in? Why were nevilles slippers in her room ? Was she bible reading in the bed with June? Was June's nightdress tested ? Why was Anne allowed to take things away from the crime scene ? Who's blood was on the bedroom floor? Why did one of the forensic tests say they could be a mixture of animal blood and human blood on the silencer ?

All this time and because of the way the crime scene was treated still no answers .

I am not making any conclusions . Just sayin that EP were still entering a crime scene and even if they assumed murder suicide it was still murder and should have been treated as such . No excuses . None .

[Caroline]

Like I said I am always asking questions . But there are definitely things in that room that don't make sense


Let's just take the initial call IF jeremy is innocent he could have assumed that his father meant Sheila because of her illness and yet there is June with all that blood on her nightdress and we don't really know the whole sequence of what happened to this day ? Who fought who? Why was Sheila's bed not slept in? Why were nevilles slippers in her room ? Was she bible reading in the bed with June? Was June's nightdress tested ? Why was Anne allowed to take things away from the crime scene ? Who's blood was on the bedroom floor? Why did one of the forensic tests say they could be a mixture of animal blood and human blood on the silencer ?

All this time and because of the way the crime scene was treated still no answers .

I am not making any conclusions . Just sayin that EP were still entering a crime scene and even if they assumed murder suicide it was still murder and should have been treated as such . No excuses . None .

That is not the purpose of a armed response unit. Their purpose is to make the scene safe and do whatever is necessary to do that. Tiptoeing around the property to preserve it, isn't their primary aim. They are there to make sure the person with the gun is disarmed and unable to hurt anyone else.

Sheila's bed was not entirely made as if no one had slept in it. No idea why Nevill' slippers were in Sheila's room but I have put forward suggestions. Ann, didn't take anything away from the crime scene, when the keys were handed back, it was no longer a crime scene.The reason for the suggestion of animal blood is because Sheila's blood contains the enzyme AK1 which is also found in rabbits.

[Jan]

That is not the purpose of a armed response unit. Their purpose is to make the scene safe and do whatever is necessary to do that. Tiptoeing around the property to preserve it, isn't their primary aim. They are there to make sure the person with the gun is disarmed and unable to hurt anyone else.

Sheila's bed was not entirely made as if no one had slept in it. No idea why Nevill' slippers were in Sheila's room but I have put forward suggestions. Ann, didn't take anything away from the crime scene, when the keys were handed back, it was no longer a crime scene.The reason for the suggestion of animal blood is because Sheila's blood contains the enzyme AK1 which is also found in rabbits.

I stand corrected about the crime scene but I was trying to say it was not a crime scene for long enough . She removed clothes that were blood stained . They removed the sound moderator whereas when they found it they should have called the police straight away. 

If there had have been four murders in any other circumstances it would have taken days and days to investigate that crime scene , to me what they did was an insult to the family whoever the perpetrator was.

[lookout]

Good questions that deserve answers,though nobody can answer what went on between who inside the farmhouse. Not even EP.
I agree that whatever happened,it was still " mass murder " and should have been treated as such. Questioning in such cases today is a Hell of a lot different as we saw in a programme this week------with not one relative in sight.

Obviously June's nightdress wasn't tested,or it would have been discussed. All we've heard about June's blood is that it was dripped around where Sheila lay and that trails of it were found to be on the carpet in front/beneath a window-----possibly the Bible ?

Unless extensive tests were carried out on the rifle blood,it could have belonged to a rabbit as their blood is on a par with human blood.

[Jane]

Like I said I am always asking questions . But there are definitely things in that room that don't make sense


Let's just take the initial call IF jeremy is innocent he could have assumed that his father meant Sheila because of her illness and yet there is June with all that blood on her nightdress and we don't really know the whole sequence of what happened to this day ? Who fought who? Why was Sheila's bed not slept in? Why were nevilles slippers in her room ? Was she bible reading in the bed with June? Was June's nightdress tested ? Why was Anne allowed to take things away from the crime scene ? Who's blood was on the bedroom floor? Why did one of the forensic tests say they could be a mixture of animal blood and human blood on the silencer ?

All this time and because of the way the crime scene was treated still no answers .

I am not making any conclusions . Just sayin that EP were still entering a crime scene and even if they assumed murder suicide it was still murder and should have been treated as such . No excuses . None .

The only answer I can give is that Jeremy controlled their thought processes -and as a result, their actions- from the word go. I'm not suggesting that there was anything 'supernatural' about what he did, but in the way that children listen to and believe what parents tell them, in the way children listen to what their teachers tell them, in the way juniors, in whatever trade or profession -generally- listen to what their seniors tell them, we ALL listen to the person who has more knowledge, than do we, of a given situation. Jeremy, during the time he was A) on the phone B) standing outside WHF with them, had complete control of the conversation. They saw, when they eventually went in, the picture he had painted for them to see. Yes, they saw murder, but they also saw that the person who'd committed those murders had taken her own life. Why WOULD they look down drains for signs of blood? Why WOULD they test night clothes for blood? They KNEW what had happened because Jeremy, the only member of the family who wasn't dead, told them. Rightly or wrongly, I will never believe, despite police training, that Jeremy's information wasn't uppermost and paramount in their thoughts when they went into the farmhouse. Those words may have blinded them to the point where they missed things. It would probably have taken some time before any thoughts of their own overrode what he'd said.

[Caroline]

I stand corrected about the crime scene but I was trying to say it was not a crime scene for long enough . She removed clothes that were blood stained . They removed the sound moderator whereas when they found it they should have called the police straight away. 

If there had have been four murders in any other circumstances it would have taken days and days to investigate that crime scene , to me what they did was an insult to the family whoever the perpetrator was.

Well, I agree about the SM and yu already know I don't buy the whole silencer argument. There is defo something odd about that - however, that doesn't mean I am right.

I guess we are looking at this in hindsight over 30 years on. However, some people think EP got it right the first time (not me of course) so, did they do such a bad job in the early stages? 

[Jan]

The only answer I can give is that Jeremy controlled their thought processes -and as a result, their actions- from the word go. I'm not suggesting that there was anything 'supernatural' about what he did, but in the way that children listen to and believe what parents tell them, in the way children listen to what their teachers tell them, in the way juniors, in whatever trade or profession -generally- listen to what their seniors tell them, we ALL listen to the person who has more knowledge, than do we, of a given situation. Jeremy, during the time he was A) on the phone B) standing outside WHF with them, had complete control of the conversation. They saw, when they eventually went in, the picture he had painted for them to see. Yes, they saw murder, but they also saw that the person who'd committed those murders had taken her own life. Why WOULD they look down drains for signs of blood? Why WOULD they test night clothes for blood? They KNEW what had happened because Jeremy, the only member of the family who wasn't dead, told them. Rightly or wrongly, I will never believe, despite police training, that Jeremy's information wasn't uppermost and paramount in their thoughts when they went into the farmhouse. Those words may have blinded them to the point where they missed things. It would probably have taken some time before any thoughts of their own overrode what he'd said.

A very risky strategy to think that a young man who had only committed a minor crime for which at that time he had not been convicted would be able to hoodwink several very experienced officers .

And in fact what he told them was true?

She did suffer from the illness he described

She had had violent outbursts before

She had been around guns all her life

He did not actually have to lie to them did he?

I wonder how he thought he would know exactly what the police reaction would be to what he said?

[mike tesko]

It's all a bit deja vous and groundhog day all rolled into one. 

Most of the worst miscarriages of justice that occurred happened in the 80's, Bambers case is just one of many, the cops and CPS in that era were at their worst ever!

[mike tesko]

.The reason for the suggestion of animal blood is because Sheila's blood contains the enzyme AK1 which is also found in rabbits.

You forgot to mention that the blood expert found two lots of animal blood (potentially the AK/1 enzyme in each case) inside the silencer but deliberately omitted this from his final report! Had this been acknowledged at the time of the 1986 trial, and the 2002 appeal, it would have established there was only a one in three chance that the AK/1 result had come from Sheila, whereas because of the deliberate omission and deception mentioned the blood expert was misleadingly able to say that the four blood group results were unique to Sheila Caffell, when if the truth be known it was far from it! The other three results (A, EAP BA, and HP 2-1) were not unique to Sheila Caffell at all! Since, June, Sheila, and an intimate mixture of June and Neville Bambers blood could all have been the source of this type of blood group activity! The jury were duped by the blood experts findings, it's as simple as this or that!!

[mike tesko]

The only answer I can give is that Jeremy controlled their thought processes -and as a result, their actions- from the word go. I'm not suggesting that there was anything 'supernatural' about what he did, but in the way that children listen to and believe what parents tell them, in the way children listen to what their teachers tell them, in the way juniors, in whatever trade or profession -generally- listen to what their seniors tell them, we ALL listen to the person who has more knowledge, than do we, of a given situation. Jeremy, during the time he was A) on the phone B) standing outside WHF with them, had complete control of the conversation. They saw, when they eventually went in, the picture he had painted for them to see. Yes, they saw murder, but they also saw that the person who'd committed those murders had taken her own life. Why WOULD they look down drains for signs of blood? Why WOULD they test night clothes for blood? They KNEW what had happened because Jeremy, the only member of the family who wasn't dead, told them. Rightly or wrongly, I will never believe, despite police training, that Jeremy's information wasn't uppermost and paramount in their thoughts when they went into the farmhouse. Those words may have blinded them to the point where they missed things. It would probably have taken some time before any thoughts of their own overrode what he'd said.

Garbage! How can anybody say that Jeremy Bamber controlled their thought processes, the guy was dyslexic, and could hardly put basic logic to work when I first met him! How did he make the police pass radio messages that two bodies were dead upon entry to the kitchen, and that there were only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am? How did he mind control senior officers into staging Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor? How did he mind control the cops forcing them to bring the only rifle found upstairs which was resting against a first floor box room window, and force the cops using telepathy and get them to present Sheila's Caffells death as a suicide which the cops know was not a suicide? Please tell me and everybody else how did Jeremy use his powerful mind control skills and force cops to tamper with one of the two bullets used in the shooting of his sister, so that it could be presented that the family owned anshuzt rifle had supposedly fired both shots in her throat!

Mind control, your having a laugh, surely...

[Jane]

A very risky strategy to think that a young man who had only committed a minor crime for which at that time he had not been convicted would be able to hoodwink several very experienced officers .

And in fact what he told them was true?

She did suffer from the illness he described

She had had violent outbursts before

She had been around guns all her life

He did not actually have to lie to them did he?

I wonder how he thought he would know exactly what the police reaction would be to what he said?

OK. It COULD be argued that Jeremy wasn't responsible for how his words were heard.

I would say that what he told them was probably embellished.

No doubting she was ill.

How do each of us hear "violent"?

Being around guns doesn't mean enough proficiency to kill 4 people and commit suicide.

He didn't have to lie. There was some truth in what he said. How much was truth? How much was stretched?

The police had no other frame of reference other than that given them by Jeremy. The had no comparisons.

[Jane]

Garbage! How can anybody say that Jeremy Bamber controlled their thought processes, the guy was dyslexic, and could hardly put basic logic to work when I first met him! How did he make the police pass radio messages that two bodies were dead upon entry to the kitchen, and that there were only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am? How did he mind control senior officers into staging Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor? How did he mind control the cops forcing them to bring the only rifle found upstairs which was resting against a first floor box room window, and force the cops using telepathy and get them to present Sheila's Caffells death as a suicide which the cops know was not a suicide? Please tell me and everybody else how did Jeremy use his powerful mind control skills and force cops to tamper with one of the two bullets used in the shooting of his sister, so that it could be presented that the family owned anshuzt rifle had supposedly fired both shots in her throat!

Mind control, your having a laugh, surely...

If you'd said it was rubbish for any other reason, I MIGHT have accepted it. I know dyslexic people who have degrees. Dyslexic means neither dumb nor thick. I means word blind. Jeremy didn't have to write down anything for the police OTHER than the diagram of the house and that didn't suggest dyslexia. He didn't have to use 'mind skills' -just as well as you imply he didn't have any- he was as fluent with words as I imagine you are.