Audio

[John]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWFCvXNAlPA

Why do you think Jeremy says THE gun around 00:37. That has always puzzled me.

Back to the original question in the thread.

A possible explanation for Jeremy saying THE gun as opposed to A gun - By using THE it is consistent with Jeremy apparently leaving a loaded gun in the kitchen before he left on the previous evening. THE gun is consistent with that account.

With Nevill allegedly choosing to use THE gun would imply that Nevill had noticed Jeremy had left a loaded gun in the kitchen. Otherwise Jeremy would not have known to which gun Nevill was referring. It was Jeremy who by his own admission allegedly left THE gun in the kitchen.

If Nevill had noticed THE gun left loaded in the kitchen why did Nevill not put it away and secure it having earlier in the evening had a heated alleged discussion with Sheila in which it was allegedly suggested that her children should be fostered. - Afterall, I am sure Nevill would have known Sheila had a history of mental ilness.

BIG error here as the gun as Jeremy refers to was moved from the table by Nevill and what's more, Jeremy knows this to be fact.  It's all in the detail campers! 

[Tyler]

Eh?  Nevill didnt live to tell the tale did he?

[curiousessex]

Tyler

You point out the kitchen table is layed ready for breakfast in the crime scene pictures which would also have been available and disclosed to the defence.

My personal beleif is that Jeremy's first statements as a witness are most important as these will be the most accurate record of Jeremy's alibi. It is that alibi which needs to be tested if he was guilty. I beleive in those statements Jeremy claimed to have left THE gun on the kitchen table. Jeremy also details he left White House Farm at about 9.30 pm the previous evening. If Jeremy as he first claimed had left THE gun on the kitchen table then the table could not have been layed for breakfast at that point in time.

It is known Nevill was in the kitchen at around 9.30 pm as he spoke with the Farm Secretary on the telphone. Surely if Nevill was in the kitchen then Nevill would have noticed THE loaded gun on the kitchen table. In all likelihood as mentioned above in previous psots he would probably have secured it given the discussions about the possibility of fostering Sheila's children. If not, in any event THE gun would have had to have been moved in order to lay the table ready for breakfast. If true at this point in time Jeremy would not know where THE gun will have been placed / put / secured. Jeremy's alibi, if guilty, has THE gun readily available for Sheila to go beserk.

If THE gun has been moved from the kitchen table then Nevill or June Bamber's fingerprints would be expected to be on THE gun. I do not beleive such fingerprints were noted when THE gun was examined. If Sheila had moved THE gun then her fingerprints would be more of her fingerprints than were found on THE gun.

This raises potential questions about Jeremy's version of events / alibi.

If Jeremy left THE gun on the kitchen table then he left THE gun on the kitchen table. However, the crime scene pictures, show someone will have had to have moved the gun from the kichen table. In moving THE gun someone will have to have held the gun in a manner that supports it having been moved.

There is no need for Jeremy to change his version of events and place THE gun in the scullery when Jeremy is a witness to 4 murders and a suicide as originally accepted.

So why does Jeremy, change his version of events to place THE gun in the scullery when he is a suspect. An explanation could be if THE gun is placed in the scullery and not the kitchen then there will be no evidence to suggest that THE gun would have to have been held in such a manner as to move it from where Jeremy had claimed he had left it before Sheila allegedly goes beserk. I thnk there were very few fingerprints found on THE gun although I could be wrong.

[curiousessex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWFCvXNAlPA

Why do you think Jeremy says THE gun around 00:37. That has always puzzled me.

Back to the original question in the thread.

A possible explanation for Jeremy saying THE gun as opposed to A gun - By using THE it is consistent with Jeremy apparently leaving a loaded gun in the kitchen before he left on the previous evening. THE gun is consistent with that account.

With Nevill allegedly choosing to use THE gun would imply that Nevill had noticed Jeremy had left a loaded gun in the kitchen. Otherwise Jeremy would not have known to which gun Nevill was referring. It was Jeremy who by his own admission allegedly left THE gun in the kitchen.

If Nevill had noticed THE gun left loaded in the kitchen why did Nevill not put it away and secure it having earlier in the evening had a heated alleged discussion with Sheila in which it was allegedly suggested that her children should be fostered. - Afterall, I am sure Nevill would have known Sheila had a history of mental ilness.

BIG error here as the gun as Jeremy refers to was moved from the table by Nevill and what's more, Jeremy knows this to be fact.  It's all in the detail campers! 

How does Jeremy know for fact that Nevill moved THE gun from the kitchen table?

Is this information detailed anywhere?

Why is it reported Jeremy left THE gun in the scullery when you are saying Jeremy knows Nevill moved it from the kitchern table???

[Tyler]

CuriousEssex,good points and I see exactly where you are coming from.I remember right back from when the murders  took place that Jeremy maintained that he left the gun on the kitchen table.I am led to believe that is what is contained in Jeremys original statements to the police.Did it change when he became a suspect then? I didnt know that because I have only really become interested in the case of late.I noticed that,on his official website,it claims that he left the gun on a settle. There is a big difference between a kitchen table and a settle.I agree the changes he has made as to where he left the gun seem a little suspicious.But maybe he cannot genuinely be absolutely certain?

[John]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWFCvXNAlPA

Why do you think Jeremy says THE gun around 00:37. That has always puzzled me.

Back to the original question in the thread.

A possible explanation for Jeremy saying THE gun as opposed to A gun - By using THE it is consistent with Jeremy apparently leaving a loaded gun in the kitchen before he left on the previous evening. THE gun is consistent with that account.

With Nevill allegedly choosing to use THE gun would imply that Nevill had noticed Jeremy had left a loaded gun in the kitchen. Otherwise Jeremy would not have known to which gun Nevill was referring. It was Jeremy who by his own admission allegedly left THE gun in the kitchen.

If Nevill had noticed THE gun left loaded in the kitchen why did Nevill not put it away and secure it having earlier in the evening had a heated alleged discussion with Sheila in which it was allegedly suggested that her children should be fostered. - Afterall, I am sure Nevill would have known Sheila had a history of mental ilness.

BIG error here as the gun as Jeremy refers to was moved from the table by Nevill and what's more, Jeremy knows this to be fact.  It's all in the detail campers! 

How does Jeremy know for fact that Nevill moved THE gun from the kitchen table?

Is this information detailed anywhere?

Why is it reported Jeremy left THE gun in the scullery when you are saying Jeremy knows Nevill moved it from the kitchern table???

Nevill always moved the guns when thick lad left them lying around and especially so when the six year-old's were around...mind you there were three of them!

[curiousessex]

CuriousEssex,good points and I see exactly where you are coming from.I remember right back from when the murders  took place that Jeremy maintained that he left the gun on the kitchen table.I am led to believe that is what is contained in Jeremys original statements to the police.Did it change when he became a suspect then? I didnt know that because I have only really become interested in the case of late.I noticed that,on his official website,it claims that he left the gun on a settle. There is a big difference between a kitchen table and a settle.I agree the changes he has made as to where he left the gun seem a little suspicious.But maybe he cannot genuinely be absolutely certain?

Kitchen or scullery the difference is.......

If THE gun is left on the kitchen table it will have to have been held and moved by someone leaving consistent fingerprints.

If in the scullery ther is no proof to confirm THE gun will have to have been held and moved by someone.

[curiousessex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWFCvXNAlPA

Why do you think Jeremy says THE gun around 00:37. That has always puzzled me.

Back to the original question in the thread.

A possible explanation for Jeremy saying THE gun as opposed to A gun - By using THE it is consistent with Jeremy apparently leaving a loaded gun in the kitchen before he left on the previous evening. THE gun is consistent with that account.

With Nevill allegedly choosing to use THE gun would imply that Nevill had noticed Jeremy had left a loaded gun in the kitchen. Otherwise Jeremy would not have known to which gun Nevill was referring. It was Jeremy who by his own admission allegedly left THE gun in the kitchen.

If Nevill had noticed THE gun left loaded in the kitchen why did Nevill not put it away and secure it having earlier in the evening had a heated alleged discussion with Sheila in which it was allegedly suggested that her children should be fostered. - Afterall, I am sure Nevill would have known Sheila had a history of mental ilness.

BIG error here as the gun as Jeremy refers to was moved from the table by Nevill and what's more, Jeremy knows this to be fact.  It's all in the detail campers! 

How does Jeremy know for fact that Nevill moved THE gun from the kitchen table?

Is this information detailed anywhere?

Why is it reported Jeremy left THE gun in the scullery when you are saying Jeremy knows Nevill moved it from the kitchern table???

Nevill always moved the guns when thick lad left them lying around and especially so when the six year-old's were around...mind you there were three of them!

I am afraid that is not proof Nevill moved THE gun if left on the kitchen table on the night of 7th August after Jeremy left at 9.30 pm.

[Alias]

Tyler

You point out the kitchen table is layed ready for breakfast in the crime scene pictures which would also have been available and disclosed to the defence.

My personal beleif is that Jeremy's first statements as a witness are most important as these will be the most accurate record of Jeremy's alibi. It is that alibi which needs to be tested if he was guilty. I beleive in those statements Jeremy claimed to have left THE gun on the kitchen table. Jeremy also details he left White House Farm at about 9.30 pm the previous evening. If Jeremy as he first claimed had left THE gun on the kitchen table then the table could not have been layed for breakfast at that point in time.

It is known Nevill was in the kitchen at around 9.30 pm as he spoke with the Farm Secretary on the telphone. Surely if Nevill was in the kitchen then Nevill would have noticed THE loaded gun on the kitchen table. In all likelihood as mentioned above in previous psots he would probably have secured it given the discussions about the possibility of fostering Sheila's children. If not, in any event THE gun would have had to have been moved in order to lay the table ready for breakfast. If true at this point in time Jeremy would not know where THE gun will have been placed / put / secured. Jeremy's alibi, if guilty, has THE gun readily available for Sheila to go beserk.

If THE gun has been moved from the kitchen table then Nevill or June Bamber's fingerprints would be expected to be on THE gun. I do not beleive such fingerprints were noted when THE gun was examined. If Sheila had moved THE gun then her fingerprints would be more of her fingerprints than were found on THE gun.

This raises potential questions about Jeremy's version of events / alibi.

If Jeremy left THE gun on the kitchen table then he left THE gun on the kitchen table. However, the crime scene pictures, show someone will have had to have moved the gun from the kichen table. In moving THE gun someone will have to have held the gun in a manner that supports it having been moved.

There is no need for Jeremy to change his version of events and place THE gun in the scullery when Jeremy is a witness to 4 murders and a suicide as originally accepted.

So why does Jeremy, change his version of events to place THE gun in the scullery when he is a suspect. An explanation could be if THE gun is placed in the scullery and not the kitchen then there will be no evidence to suggest that THE gun would have to have been held in such a manner as to move it from where Jeremy had claimed he had left it before Sheila allegedly goes beserk. I thnk there were very few fingerprints found on THE gun although I could be wrong.

Good observations.
However I don´t think you can put too much into which fingerprints were found on the rifle and which not. The gun had been handled so carelessly by the police after the discovery. They were moving it around, placing it on Sheila´s body in different positions - I think without gloves. Who knows what else was done with this rifle?!

[John]

CuriousEssex,good points and I see exactly where you are coming from.I remember right back from when the murders  took place that Jeremy maintained that he left the gun on the kitchen table.I am led to believe that is what is contained in Jeremys original statements to the police.Did it change when he became a suspect then? I didnt know that because I have only really become interested in the case of late.I noticed that,on his official website,it claims that he left the gun on a settle. There is a big difference between a kitchen table and a settle.I agree the changes he has made as to where he left the gun seem a little suspicious.But maybe he cannot genuinely be absolutely certain?

Kitchen or scullery the difference is.......

If THE gun is left on the kitchen table it will have to have been held and moved by someone leaving consistent fingerprints.

If in the scullery ther is no proof to confirm THE gun will have to have been held and moved by someone.

Jeremy thought that by saying that he had left a fully loaded gun lying on the kitchen table (what an idiot) that it would fit nicely into his fantasy story that Sheila lifted it and started plugging everyone.  Problem is that Nevill moved the gun as per usual so if Sheila wanted it she would have had to have looked for it in the kitchen or the office.

The rifle was wiped clean as evidenced by the lack of prints of any sort...except for one of Jeremy's off course.  Is that the print he made when he left the rifle on Sheila's body?

Abs, the police moving a gun around does not remove prints.

[Alias]

CuriousEssex,good points and I see exactly where you are coming from.I remember right back from when the murders  took place that Jeremy maintained that he left the gun on the kitchen table.I am led to believe that is what is contained in Jeremys original statements to the police.Did it change when he became a suspect then? I didnt know that because I have only really become interested in the case of late.I noticed that,on his official website,it claims that he left the gun on a settle. There is a big difference between a kitchen table and a settle.I agree the changes he has made as to where he left the gun seem a little suspicious.But maybe he cannot genuinely be absolutely certain?

Kitchen or scullery the difference is.......

If THE gun is left on the kitchen table it will have to have been held and moved by someone leaving consistent fingerprints.

If in the scullery ther is no proof to confirm THE gun will have to have been held and moved by someone.

Jeremy thought that by saying that he had left a fully loaded gun lying on the kitchen table (what an idiot) that it would fit nicely into his fantasy story that Sheila lifted it and started plugging everyone.  Problem is that Nevill moved the gun as per usual so if Sheila wanted it she would have had to have looked for it in the kitchen or the office.

The rifle was wiped clean as evidenced by the lack of prints of any sort...except for one of Jeremy's off course.  Is that the print he made when he left the rifle on Sheila's body?

That wouldn´t have been too hard. Everyone in that house knew where the firearms were kept. She could even have seen Nevill move it from the kitchen.

[John]

CuriousEssex,good points and I see exactly where you are coming from.I remember right back from when the murders  took place that Jeremy maintained that he left the gun on the kitchen table.I am led to believe that is what is contained in Jeremys original statements to the police.Did it change when he became a suspect then? I didnt know that because I have only really become interested in the case of late.I noticed that,on his official website,it claims that he left the gun on a settle. There is a big difference between a kitchen table and a settle.I agree the changes he has made as to where he left the gun seem a little suspicious.But maybe he cannot genuinely be absolutely certain?

Kitchen or scullery the difference is.......

If THE gun is left on the kitchen table it will have to have been held and moved by someone leaving consistent fingerprints.

If in the scullery ther is no proof to confirm THE gun will have to have been held and moved by someone.

Jeremy thought that by saying that he had left a fully loaded gun lying on the kitchen table (what an idiot) that it would fit nicely into his fantasy story that Sheila lifted it and started plugging everyone.  Problem is that Nevill moved the gun as per usual so if Sheila wanted it she would have had to have looked for it in the kitchen or the office.

The rifle was wiped clean as evidenced by the lack of prints of any sort...except for one of Jeremy's off course.  Is that the print he made when he left the rifle on Sheila's body?

That wouldn´t have been too hard. Everyone in that house knew where the firearms were kept. She could even have seen Nevill move it from the kitchen.

Very true and quite possibly did do.  Point is that Jeremy's story about the gun left lying on the table overnight is cods-wallop.

[Tyler]

Abs,I agree about the fingerprints,the police handling the gun without gloves etc.There was one print found of Jeremys and one print found of Sheilas on the gun.There was also blood on the gun (you can see where the various locations of the blood were found on one of Mikes diagrams). Though I have never seen it stated anywhere as to who that blood belonged to.Has anyone else?

[John]

Abs,I agree about the fingerprints,the police handling the gun without gloves etc.There was one print found of Jeremys and one print found of Sheilas on the gun.There was also blood on the gun (you can see where the various locations of the blood were found on one of Mikes diagrams). Though I have never seen it stated anywhere as to who that blood belonged to.Has anyone else?

The weapon was also examined for fingerprints. A print from the appellant's right forefinger was found on the breech end of the barrel, above the stock and pointing across the gun and Sheila Caffell's right ring fingerprint was found on the right side of the butt, pointing downwards. There were three further finger marks on the rifle, each of insufficient detail for identification purposes.

A shotgun that had Sheila Caffell's fingerprints and Ralph Bamber's fingerprints upon it was found and photographed next to the gun cupboard in which the silencer was eventually found.

The police don't handle weapons without using a barrier.

[Tyler]

Abs,I agree about the fingerprints,the police handling the gun without gloves etc.There was one print found of Jeremys and one print found of Sheilas on the gun.There was also blood on the gun (you can see where the various locations of the blood were found on one of Mikes diagrams). Though I have never seen it stated anywhere as to who that blood belonged to.Has anyone else?

There were no fingerprints on the rifle belonging to Sheila, Nevill or June.  Strange that when Nevill moved the rifle to the office.

I think that you will find that there was one each of Jeremys ansd Sheilas fingerprints on the rifle.In addition to this,one each of both Nevill and Sheilas fingerprints were found on Ralphs shogun.