Did sheila really shoot herself in the kitchen before walking upstairs?

[chelmsey]

Forgive me as I am stupid        but I would have thought that the bullet in her neck would have rendered her unconcious and even if she did regain conciousness,I doubt it would have been for very long.that is my opinion anyway. Was the bullet fragmented? Or was it as the pathologist stated,that it was just mis-placed tissue?

[Hartley]

Forgive me as I am stupid        but I would have thought that the bullet in her neck would have rendered her unconcious and even if she did regain conciousness,I doubt it would have been for very long.that is my opinion anyway. Was the bullet fragmented? Or was it as the pathologist stated,that it was just mis-placed tissue?

Not sure, it's described as badly damaged in one instance, fragmented in another and whole in another. The x-rays may or may not indicate fragmentation. Anybodies guess really.

[nugnug]

i would of allso thought shooting yourself in the neck once would make you incapable of dong it a second time.

[chelmsey]

i would of allso thought shooting yourself in the neck once would make you incapable of dong it a second time.

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

[nugnug]

thats a pretty bad mistake to make

i mean you dont need to be an expert to know if theres 2 holes in someones neck or 1

[Hartley]

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

That's a fair point, I'm not sure it indicates anything sinister though, incompetence maybe, as the suicide was acceptable at that stage, there's no reason to alter his findings.

[Roch]

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

That's a fair point, I'm not sure it indicates anything sinister though, incompetence maybe, as the suicide was acceptable at that stage, there's no reason to alter his findings.

An incompetent pathologist as well as incompetent police?  It is possible.

[Hartley]

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

That's a fair point, I'm not sure it indicates anything sinister though, incompetence maybe, as the suicide was acceptable at that stage, there's no reason to alter his findings.

An incompetent pathologist as well as incompetent police?  It is possible.

It's not out of the question.

Making assumptions and drawing conclusions simply from the documents which Mike T has posted on this forum isn't going to ever really get anywhere though.

Whilst we're all (maybe not all) interested in the case, our discussion on this forum isn't going to affect the outcome at all.

[Roch]

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

That's a fair point, I'm not sure it indicates anything sinister though, incompetence maybe, as the suicide was acceptable at that stage, there's no reason to alter his findings.

An incompetent pathologist as well as incompetent police?  It is possible.

It's not out of the question.

Making assumptions and drawing conclusions simply from the documents which Mike T has posted on this forum isn't going to ever really get anywhere though.

Whilst we're all (maybe not all) interested in the case, our discussion on this forum isn't going to affect the outcome at all.

Well you never know.  Theories getting tested on here may aid either prosecution or defense.  You never know who's watching / reading.  Maybe many brains are better than the few legal brains who would normally be mulling this stuff over.  Just a thought

 

[Hartley]

Personally,I cant seem to trust much of the pathologists findings.At one stage,he concluded only one wound to Sheilas neck.How could he possibly make a mistake like that? I thought about that pathologist when I heard about the one that gave a false report into the case of the man that died after being pushed over by the pc at the London protests.He clearly tried to cover up for the police,but is now being investigated.Good job too!

That's a fair point, I'm not sure it indicates anything sinister though, incompetence maybe, as the suicide was acceptable at that stage, there's no reason to alter his findings.

An incompetent pathologist as well as incompetent police?  It is possible.

It's not out of the question.

Making assumptions and drawing conclusions simply from the documents which Mike T has posted on this forum isn't going to ever really get anywhere though.

Whilst we're all (maybe not all) interested in the case, our discussion on this forum isn't going to affect the outcome at all.

Well you never know.  Theories getting tested on here may aid either prosecution or defense.  You never know who's watching / reading.  Maybe many brains are better than the few legal brains who would normally be mulling this stuff over.  Just a thought

Yeah I suppose, You may be right.

It's just a shame that Mike is selective with the documents he posts, which of course he would be as he's trying to argue JB's innocence, but I'm sure he's got transcripts of JM's cross examinations, all of the '86 court transcript actually, plus all manner of other statements and docs, 50,000 of them according to Mike.

We'll probably never get to see them but they would make for a more open discussion.

--------------------
Not interested in people comparing this to files held under PII before anybody starts.

[Jackiepreece]

I dont agree Hartley.  As someone who is always trying to decide what is fact or fiction I learnt so much yesterday re guns the bullets etc from ngb1066.
For me the best outcome would be that Sheila carried out the murders because she was very very I'll and I have personally known two people who have committed suicide one because her husband left herald the other person was someone I worked for who had money problems. The first person hung herself and she obviously didn't know what she was doing because her children came home from school to find her hanging from the banisters the second person tried to cut his wrists then hung himself in a Colchester hotel.  To me they were both wonderful people and there wasn't any indication they would do this.
From the way NGB1066 explained things yesterday with his knowledge of guns says it was physically possible to have carried out the murders that's what I think happened.  I have thought for ages about this and I have looked at the hitman theories but my personal opinion is Sheila was responsible and any cover up etc was when the relatives got involved with the silencer.  I would love to see an actual reconstruction with NGb1066 and spark films but I dont know how that could happen.  I still strongly believe there is evidence in file one that made the police convinced it was suicide and I don't go along with johns theory that they were convinced because John told them.  They would never have let a single piece of evidence leave whf if they weren't convinced.

[Hartley]

I dont agree Hartley.

That's fine. 

I just mean that the information and conclusions we each glean from various people on here, whilst furthering our individual understandings, I'm not sure it affects the case, in the sense that it doesn't affect anything the powers that be decide or act upon.

We're all giving commentary, but it's only based on our own interpretations of what's placed before us.

Your reference to NGB's posts about firearms, sure it's informative and interesting to you and I (I know nothing on the subject), as are his posts regarding legal protocol, but I don't think they teach the CCRC anything they wouldn't already know.

[chochokeira]

Forgive me as I am stupid        but I would have thought that the bullet in her neck would have rendered her unconcious and even if she did regain conciousness,I doubt it would have been for very long.that is my opinion anyway. Was the bullet fragmented? Or was it as the pathologist stated,that it was just mis-placed tissue?

If it wasn't possible for a person to revive following a soft tissue injury to the neck and to move and function afterwards then I doubt that I would be here today, Lady C, though it wasn't me that was injured.

My father and a friend of his were both very seriously injured by a bomb blast while fighting during WW2. My father's injuries included many pieces of shrapnel embedded in, and protruding from, his neck, back and legs and he was peppered by a large number of small shrapnel wounds extending from his neck to his legs. My father's friend's face head, neck and eyes sustained the worst of his shrapnel injuries and he was blinded by the blast.

Both men, who bled profusely and were knocked unconscious, were mistakenly left for dead by their retreating unit. When they regained consciousness, some time after their unit had left, my father and his friend realised that they had to get urgent medical attention. Thank God, they somehow managed to drag themselves to abandoned army vehicles until they found one which was drivable. With my father unable to walk or drive and his friend unable to see, but able to move his arms and legs, my father navigated the vehicle while his blinded friend drove for some distance until they eventually found help.

Both men survived -  just - they both narrowly escaped dying from their injuries. They each recovered to live relatively healthy lives. Though pieces of shrapnel had to be periodically removed from my father's body for 19 years after the war. He died in his 40s of unexplained liver and other problems which my mother believed were due to complications caused by the shrapnel from that bomb blast some 19 years previously.

I still get a lump in my throat when I think of the courage of my beloved father and his friend. We humans have remarkable reserves of courage, determination and endurance when these are needed, Lady C.

[Jackiepreece]

I found out some good news today the law students (growing numbers daily) don't just think JB s case is a miscarriage of justice and would be happy for him just to be released they are delving deeply into every aspect of the case, forensics, police statements, PII to see how this has happened, how it can take 26 years to disclose evidence and why evidence was destroyed.
.

I suppose for any law student in the UK today you couldn't get a better case to investigate

[Jackiepreece]

How proud must you be Chocho what a good example