Reason to believe cops shot Sheila, and how her blood ended up inside Silencer!

[Adam]

Sorry if this has been covered previously, I don't have time to read all the posts; however if people are going to argue that it would be "ludicruous" to suggest that Sheila managed to get upstairs from the first shot, then "ludicrous" also equally has to apply to June and Neville who both were able to get up and move about after being shot in their beds. 

June managed to get up and put up at least some token resistance with the presumable final shot between her eyes indicating that the killer was having some difficulty despatching her for good, even after the additional six shots she had received previously.

For those that argue that Nevill was shot in the mouth upstairs, it would have to be concluded that even after receiving such a debilitating wound he still managed to stay on his feet and put up one helluva fight in the kitchen before succumbing to further shots. 

So the point I'm trying to make here is that if a single shot is so debilitating for Sheila, then by the same token, both Nevill and June would not have been able to get out of their beds to defend themselves, which they apparently tried to do with equally debilitating wounds.

Hoots!

Nevill & June were not shot in the same position as Sheila was. June didn't resist. She just moved a few feet. Nevill was stronger than both & two of his upstairs shots were body shots.

The evidence shows that Sheila died after two shots & Nevill was shot 4 times upstairs & got downstairs.

There was no possibility Sheila could have shot herself once & walked around WHF. And no reason why she would do this.

[lookout]

One of the raid team,PC Manners in his 1991 COLP interview had said that it had looked as though June had been dragged from her bed by her feet,which would have indicated that she'd been shot whilst in bed. There are pics showing different positions of her,so she had been moved from her bed,then propped up against the bedroom door,lying on her side,then on her back.
Going by this,it would have appeared to have been Junes blood on the other side of the bed if she'd been dragged off it.
What a bloody awful thought.

[David1819]

Sorry if this has been covered previously, I don't have time to read all the posts; however if people are going to argue that it would be "ludicruous" to suggest that Sheila managed to get upstairs from the first shot, then "ludicrous" also equally has to apply to June and Neville who both were able to get up and move about after being shot in their beds. 

June managed to get up and put up at least some token resistance with the presumable final shot between her eyes indicating that the killer was having some difficulty despatching her for good, even after the additional six shots she had received previously.

For those that argue that Nevill was shot in the mouth upstairs, it would have to be concluded that even after receiving such a debilitating wound he still managed to stay on his feet and put up one helluva fight in the kitchen before succumbing to further shots. 

So the point I'm trying to make here is that if a single shot is so debilitating for Sheila, then by the same token, both Nevill and June would not have been able to get out of their beds to defend themselves, which they apparently tried to do with equally debilitating wounds.

Hoots!

Sheila received both shots at the same time while she was sitting upwards.

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back." COA 2002

[susan]

Hi Susan,yes there is blood on that side as I remember it being said that maybe Sheila had sat on the edge because at the back of her nightdress was a bloodstain which could well have mirrored where she'd sat. The pic is on the forum somewhere of both the bed and the nightdress.

Thanks lookout maybe my wee pal Adam will find it for us

[guest1199]

One of the raid team,PC Manners in his 1991 COLP interview had said that it had looked as though June had been dragged from her bed by her feet,which would have indicated that she'd been shot whilst in bed. There are pics showing different positions of her,so she had been moved from her bed,then propped up against the bedroom door,lying on her side,then on her back.
Going by this,it would have appeared to have been Junes blood on the other side of the bed if she'd been dragged off it.
What a bloody awful thought.

Both Nevill and June were both able to get out of bed and put up some sort of defence with the possibility of June taking a head and chest shots at least.  There is this from Vanezis from CAL's book

"Vanezis was unable to assess the order in which June had received her wounds. He suspected that the shots to her right arm and leg were fired as she tried to ward off her killer, while the copious blood smears on her lower limbs occurred as she lay on the floor: "

So Vanezis is of the opinion that she at least tried to defend herself.  Nevill certainly did defend himself with significant "impact and trauma" wounds compared with only one that appears to have completely disabled Sheila. The points I'm trying to make is that both Nevill and June suffered "impact and traumatising" and still managed to resist, if they weren't "impact and traumatising" wounds what were they? 

I been answered with the theory that Sheila's wound disrupted her jugular vein was unique in the circumstances and would have disabled her quickly; however I think that the alleged "excruciating agony" that has been offered is no different from the excruciating agony that Nevill would have suffered but put up a resolute defence, so no doubt adrenaline hits the fan at some stage with Nevill and perhaps Sheila too.

I can take the theory of Sheila's wound being potentially fatal since it disrupted her jugular vein, in the meantime; however whether she could have stood up and walked about for any length of time hasn't been proved one way or the other with Vanezis apparently changing his mind on this.

If there are medical reasons or other professional articles that can explain this change of mind please let me know.

Hoots!

[Jane]

Both Nevill and June were both able to get out of bed and put up some sort of defence with the possibility of June taking a head and chest shots at least.  There is this from Vanezis from CAL's book

"Vanezis was unable to assess the order in which June had received her wounds. He suspected that the shots to her right arm and leg were fired as she tried to ward off her killer, while the copious blood smears on her lower limbs occurred as she lay on the floor: "

So Vanezis is of the opinion that she at least tried to defend herself.  Nevill certainly did defend himself with significant "impact and trauma" wounds compared with only one that appears to have completely disabled Sheila. The points I'm trying to make is that both Nevill and June suffered "impact and traumatising" and still managed to resist, if they weren't "impact and traumatising" wounds what were they? 

I been answered with the theory that Sheila's wound disrupted her jugular vein was unique in the circumstances and would have disabled her quickly; however I think that the alleged "excruciating agony" that has been offered is no different from the excruciating agony that Nevill would have suffered but put up a resolute defence, so no doubt adrenaline hits the fan at some stage with Nevill and perhaps Sheila too.

I can take the theory of Sheila's wound being potentially fatal since it disrupted her jugular vein, in the meantime; however whether she could have stood up and walked about for any length of time hasn't been proved one way or the other with Vanezis apparently changing his mind on this.

If there are medical reasons or other professional articles that can explain this change of mind please let me know.

Hoots!

Except that you're having Sheila walk much further -with a spinal injury which was mortal AND a 'disrupted' jugular- than either Nevill and June. Why do you think medics never move people who they suspect of having spinal injuries?

[guest1199]

Except that you're having Sheila walk much further -

I'm not having Sheila walk any specific distance.  I think it's you that trying to take me a little walk.


Hoots!

[Jane]

I'm not having Sheila walk any specific distance.  I think it's you that trying to take me a little walk.


Hoots!

How, then, do you think she managed to put the silencer in the gun cupboard under the stairs without walking down the stairs? Are you imagining she slid down the banister or perhaps bumped down, stair by stair, on her bottom?

[Steve_uk]

I'm not having Sheila walk any specific distance.  I think it's you that trying to take me a little walk.


Hoots!

So you've rejected Mike's theory that Sheila was in the kitchen when the Raid Team entered. Pathologist Peter Vanezis said the two shots occurred when Sheila was seated and within close proximity. I'm not sure what the point is if you're trying to make Jeremy innocent of the crimes?

[guest1199]

How, then, do you think she managed to put the silencer in the gun cupboard under the stairs without walking down the stairs? Are you imagining she slid down the banister or perhaps bumped down, stair by stair, on her bottom?

I consider the original point I made upthread to be pretty much exhausted.  I have my considerations on the moderator, but you'll have to wait for that.  Good day to y'all.

Hoots!

[Jane]

I consider the original point I made upthread to be pretty much exhausted.  I have my considerations on the moderator, but you'll have to wait for that.  Good day to y'all.

Hoots!



Hoot

Enjoy your haggis

[Caroline]

I co-operated with Roger Wilkes when he was penning the transcript of his book!

My involvement was chiefly in the role of making the documents available to him...

It's just a coincidence that both Wilkes and myself arrived independently of one another the belief that Sheila had not shot herself! He and I are both correct in our interpretation of the circumstances surrounding Sheila's death! She was shot and killed by another person! Sheila did shoot and kill the other four victims, but she did not kill herself.

He doesn't mention you in his Acknowledgements?

[mike tesko]

Sheila received both shots at the same time while she was sitting upwards.

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back." COA 2002

Professor knights opinion differs to that of Peter Venezis, what you have to bear in mind in that Venezis removed a badly fragmented piece of bullet (PV/20) during the autopsy performed on Sheila Caffell on 7th August 1985, yet by 20th September 1985, that bullet had become transformed into a whole bullet which enabled the prosecutions ballistic expert, Malcom Fletcher, to conclude that both bullets had been fired from the same gun! Venezis did not challenge the transformation of the original piece of badly fragmented into a whole bullet, and Venezis alluded to the possibility that both shots could have been inflicted one after the other, involving 'recoil', therefore turning a blind eye to the substitution of one piece of bullet, for a whole test fired round! This tells me that Venezis was part of the problem! I choose to rely upon the testimony of professor Knight over the dodgy approach of Venezis. Knight had got nothing to gain from giving his opinion on the delay between both shots, he concluding that there could have been half an hour between shot 1 and shot 2, as opposed to Venezis who went for the two shots being received one immediately after the other!

Venezis must have known that the original piece of badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) had been swapped by cops, and he must have known the reason why cops had to swap the bullet. In my book Venezis was in on the cover up!

[Jane]

Professor knights opinion differs to that of Peter Venezis, what you have to bear in mind in that Venezis removed a badly fragmented piece of bullet (PV/20) during the autopsy performed on Sheila Caffell on 7th August 1985, yet by 20th September 1985, that bullet had become transformed into a whole bullet which enabled the prosecutions ballistic expert, Malcom Fletcher, to conclude that both bullets had been fired from the same gun! Venezis did not challenge the transformation of the original piece of badly fragmented into a whole bullet, and Venezis alluded to the possibility that both shots could have been inflicted one after the other, involving 'recoil', therefore turning a blind eye to the substitution of one piece of bullet, for a whole test fired round! This tells me that Venezis was part of the problem! I choose to rely upon the testimony of professor Knight over the dodgy approach of Venezis. Knight had got nothing to gain from giving his opinion on the delay between both shots, he concluding that there could have been half an hour between shot 1 and shot 2, as opposed to Venezis who went for the two shots being received one immediately after the other!

Venezis must have known that the original piece of badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) had been swapped by cops, and he must have known the reason why cops had to swap the bulket. In my book Venezis was in on the cover up!

I have to say, that after much consideration, I'm more inclined to go with Vanezis. What you say of him is only your opinion, isn't it.

[guest2181]

He doesn't mention you in his Acknowledgements?

Wasn't it also published before MT was given the documents by JB?