Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[Adam]

Steve I think you underestimated the strength of Sheila. Because her mind was sick was no indicator that her physical strength was interrupted in any way as she was more than capable of doing all of the things which people say were impossible.

Sheila couldn't get off sofa's without help. Source aleady supplied.

[lookout]

Sheila couldn't get off sofa's without help. Source aleady supplied.

One of AE's little gems.What would she know ? Sheila came to life at night------did AE see her then ?

[Adam]

One of AE's little gems.What would she know ? Sheila came to life at night------did AE see her then ?

It was not AE but Sheila's best friend.

[maggie]

Sheila couldn't get off sofa's without help. Source aleady supplied.

Sheila walked down to see Jeremy in the fields the afternoon before the murders so she wasn't completely incapacitated.  Think any difficulties she may have had have been highly exaggerated. 

We don't know if she had any problems with her movements at that time. Personally I doubt it.
Haloperidol CAN cause muscle twitches, stiffness and facial gurning  but this usually occurs in older people who have taken it for a long time ie. years.  There is a possibility that there may be some muscle twitching in short term, low level doses but it's much more unusual. 

I know there have been a few references by friends and AE  to her having difficulties but these were mainly in the past when she was taking Stelazine rather than Haloperidol.  She had been prescribed meds which would help with such problems but we know from her autopsy that she had only been taking Haloperidol which makes me think she was free of symptoms at that time. 

I wouldn't think for a minute that someone like Sheila who minded so much about her appearance would not bother to take tablets which could stop these very unattractive side effects if they were happening.. 

[susan]

Sheila walked down to see Jeremy in the fields the afternoon before the murders so she wasn't completely incapacitated.  Think any difficulties she may have had have been highly exaggerated. 

We don't know if she had any problems with her movements at that time. Personally I doubt it.
Haloperidol CAN cause muscle twitches, stiffness and facial gurning  but this usually occurs in older people who have taken it for a long time.  There is a possibility that there may be some muscle twitching in low level doses but it's much more unusual. 

I know there have been a few references by friends and AE  to her having difficulties but these were mainly in the past when she was taking Stelazine rather than Haloperidol.  She had been prescribed meds which would help with such problems but we know from her autopsy that she had only been taking Haloperidol which makes me think she was free of symptoms at that time. 

I wouldn't think for a minute that someone like Sheila who minded so much about her appearance would not bother to take tablets which could stop these very unattractive side effects if they were happening..

Hi Maggie

I agree Sheila was not as Adam has described her she did walk to the fields in the afternoon I think to show the twins Uncle Jeremy's tractor.

[Adam]

Sheila walked down to see Jeremy in the fields the afternoon before the murders so she wasn't completely incapacitated.  Think any difficulties she may have had have been highly exaggerated. 

We don't know if she had any problems with her movements at that time. Personally I doubt it.
Haloperidol CAN cause muscle twitches, stiffness and facial gurning  but this usually occurs in older people who have taken it for a long time.  There is a possibility that there may be some muscle twitching in low level doses but it's much more unusual. 

I know there have been a few references by friends and AE  to her having difficulties but these were mainly in the past when she was taking Stelazine rather than Haloperidol.  She had been prescribed meds which would help with such problems but we know from her autopsy that she had only been taking Haloperidol which makes me think she was free of symptoms at that time. 

I wouldn't think for a minute that someone like Sheila who minded so much about her appearance would not bother to take tablets which could stop these very unattractive side effects if they were happening..

Sheila's best friend said Sheila needed help getting off sofa's a week before the massacre.

The evidence from Bamber & PB on the massacre night was Sheila was sufferring from severe drowiness which is a common effect of Haloperidol.

[Steve_uk]

Sheila walked down to see Jeremy in the fields the afternoon before the murders so she wasn't completely incapacitated.  Think any difficulties she may have had have been highly exaggerated. 

We don't know if she had any problems with her movements at that time. Personally I doubt it.
Haloperidol CAN cause muscle twitches, stiffness and facial gurning  but this usually occurs in older people who have taken it for a long time ie. years.  There is a possibility that there may be some muscle twitching in short term, low level doses but it's much more unusual. 

I know there have been a few references by friends and AE  to her having difficulties but these were mainly in the past when she was taking Stelazine rather than Haloperidol.  She had been prescribed meds which would help with such problems but we know from her autopsy that she had only been taking Haloperidol which makes me think she was free of symptoms at that time. 

I wouldn't think for a minute that someone like Sheila who minded so much about her appearance would not bother to take tablets which could stop these very unattractive side effects if they were happening..

There's a plethora of evidence from Barbara Wilson noticing Sheila waded through a gaggle of geese to house painter Michael Horsnell and Tiptree shopkeeper Barry Parker through to Pamela Boutflour herself that last night to note that Sheila was either acting strangely or physically incapacitated in some way.

[maggie]

Sheila's best friend said Sheila needed help getting off sofa's a week before the massacre.

The evidence from Bamber & PB on the massacre night was Sheila was sufferring from severe drowiness which is a common effect of Haloperidol.

I know it was her best friend who reported she had difficulty getting up off the sofa the week before but to be honest we don't know why that was.  I needed help getting up off the sofa a few weeks ago but I'm OK now, thanks for asking.

I don't remember PB saying she had severe drowsiness, June told Pamela she wanted to talk to her about Sheila the next day and think it was said that she was disconnected and not interested in anything, JB said she was very quiet and not joining in with the conversation at the table when day fostering was being discussed but as many don't believe the scene he speaks of ever happened that is irrelevant.  No point saying JB invented the conversation then quote him to prove a point.

I am well aware that Haloperidol can cause severe drowsiness but it's an assumption to my mind that was what was wrong with Sheila.  Others who saw her that week commented Sheila appeared the same as she always had been, so any disconnect may have only occurred the day or a few days before before the massacre.

I am just saying that sometimes assumptions are made that are more about proving a point than sticking to facts.

[maggie]

There's a plethora of evidence from Barbara Wilson noticing Sheila waded through a gaggle of geese to house painter Michael Horsnell and Tiptree shopkeeper Barry Parker through to Pamela Boutflour herself that last night to note that Sheila was either acting strangely or physically incapacitated in some way.

I didn't say Sheila wasn't acting strangely but we don't know why that was or what the cause was imo.
We don't know how Sheila was physically the week of the murders, as far as \I can remember walking through the geese and putting beans on toast were not that week.  Even if haloperidol had made her muscles stiff her dose had been dropped a lot and therefore her symptoms may have already subsided.  I am not saying it was definitely the case but rather suggesting that we just don't know what Sheila's physical condition was like the day f the murders and we shouldn't make assumptions. 

[Steve_uk]

I didn't say Sheila wasn't acting strangely but we don't know why that was or what the cause was imo.
We don't know how Sheila was physically the week of the murders, as far as \I can remember walking through the geese and putting beans on toast were not that week.  Even if haloperidol had made her muscles stiff her dose had been dropped a lot and therefore her symptoms may have already subsided.  I am not saying it was definitely the case but rather suggesting that we just don't know what Sheila's physical condition was like the day f the murders and we shouldn't make assumptions. 

Sorry but this is well-documented, and I'm afraid the customary excuse that everybody is lying except Jeremy just won't wash:

Chapter 19 Tuesday 6 August 1985

Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house." June sought him out a short while later to discuss repairs: "I got the definite impression that she was upset about something. She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children. It was not anything she said, but just the way she looked and was speaking." When they left the house, "Sheila definitely did not look normal" and was again "walking stiffly, like a zombie from a horror movie."

How can you possibly square this with the frenzied activity running up and downstairs and reloading a gun twice only a few hours later?

[maggie]

Sorry but this is well-documented, and I'm afraid the customary excuse that everybody is lying except Jeremy just won't wash:

Chapter 19 Tuesday 6 August 1985

Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house." June sought him out a short while later to discuss repairs: "I got the definite impression that she was upset about something. She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children. It was not anything she said, but just the way she looked and was speaking." When they left the house, "Sheila definitely did not look normal" and was again "walking stiffly, like a zombie from a horror movie."

How can you possibly square this with the frenzied activity running up and downstairs and reloading a gun twice only a few hours later?

Its a long time since I thought or said 'everybody is lying except Jeremy'?     It's clear enough that was Michael Horsnell's opinion, who is he by the way? I was not as convinced or enthused by CALs book as some in fact it was just the same old stuff rolled out again. I gave up halfway through.
She went shopping with June in the afternoon, there is a statement from the shopkeeper but no mention ShEila having a strange gait.
I just believe in keeping an open mind and I'm not convinced Sheila was as disabled by Haloperidol at that time as some claim.

[Steve_uk]

Michael Horsnell was a builder and painter who did odd jobs for the Bambers. He was the first to discover the break-in at the Osea Road office.

[maggie]

Michael Horsnell was a builder and painter who did odd jobs for the Bambers. He was the first to discover the break-in at the Osea Road office.

Cheers for that.

[Adam]

Sorry but this is well-documented, and I'm afraid the customary excuse that everybody is lying except Jeremy just won't wash:

Chapter 19 Tuesday 6 August 1985

Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house." June sought him out a short while later to discuss repairs: "I got the definite impression that she was upset about something. She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children. It was not anything she said, but just the way she looked and was speaking." When they left the house, "Sheila definitely did not look normal" and was again "walking stiffly, like a zombie from a horror movie."

How can you possibly square this with the frenzied activity running up and downstairs and reloading a gun twice only a few hours later?

Is this from CAL's book as well ?

Surely people can't still believe Sheila was capable of committing the massacre.

There is a mountain of evidence that she couldn't. This extract relates to the massacre day together with Bamber's & PB's WS's. Sheila's best friends ststement relates to only a week earlier.

Sheila did not committ the massacre but the Haloperidol made her easy to control.

[David1819]

Sorry but this is well-documented, and I'm afraid the customary excuse that everybody is lying except Jeremy just won't wash:

Chapter 19 Tuesday 6 August 1985

Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house." June sought him out a short while later to discuss repairs: "I got the definite impression that she was upset about something. She was in a different mood from when she had been playing with the children. It was not anything she said, but just the way she looked and was speaking." When they left the house, "Sheila definitely did not look normal" and was again "walking stiffly, like a zombie from a horror movie."

How can you possibly square this with the frenzied activity running up and downstairs and reloading a gun twice only a few hours later?

With the part of the chapter you have deliberately missed out.

Chapter 19 Tuesday 6 August 1985

Len Foakes saw Sheila and one of the boys walking along Pages Lane with Crispy at half-past twelve: ‘I slowed down the van that I was driving. The window was down and Sheila said to me, “Hello Len” and smiled. She seemed very happy then.’3 Throughout the day, there would be conflicting accounts of Sheila’s mood and general appearance. At some points she seemed fine, yet others recall odd behaviour.