Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[Caroline]

Yes but Jane it isn't the way she said it is it it's why she was thinking about it that was the problem. You and Caroline insist that she hadn't said anything about those kind of feelings since her previous hospital visit but we can't be sure can we and it was said she was worse. I would like to see All her medical records.

She had the thoughts because she had schizophrenia but since taking medication for this illness, she didn't express such thoughts again. She was worse - that is 'more agitated' because she hadn't been taking her medication - hence the injections. But we can be sure that she didn't express thoughts about killing her children. parents because her psychiatrist said he didn't.

[guest1199]

Adam

I posted what I would describe as the epicentre of the crime in a few short paragraphs hoping for some decent debate on the subject.  I mostly got baloney in return, to which you made a considerable contribution.  I'd be a hell of a lot more forthcoming with a more complete Sheila scenario if I receieved some sensible responses yesterday, but I had to content myself with the pre-laid plan that Jeremy had cunningly thought out had something to do with Les Dawson's wonky piano playing, I know not why.  So If you really would like a Sheila scenario, I'd like a bit more in the way of serious debate from the likes of yourself before I make further effort.  Finally, I'd be very much obliged if you amended your post like I requested like the gentleman you are so that I can remove my responses, (if you haven't done so already).

[Jane]

Yes but Jane it isn't the way she said it is it it's why she was thinking about it that was the problem. You and Caroline insist that she hadn't said anything about those kind of feelings since her previous hospital visit but we can't be sure can we and it was said she was worse. I would like to see All her medical records.

Then we must look at WHY she was worse. We'll find the answer lays in that she didn't take her medication. THIS was why she had a second breakdown. THIS time, they took no chances. She received her meds intravenously. With reference to her feelings. Dr Ferguson -unless you're suggesting he lied deliberately- could only go by what she told him ie he dealt with the immediacy.

[Roch]

Adam wasn't impressed with my Sheila scenario.  Sheila retains control of the rifle.  Once both of the other adults have received non-fatal gunshot wounds, they quichkly lose any advantage that they might have had either individually or collectively.  Sheila has an element of suprise on her side in the conflict: despite any animosity or tenseness during the previous evening, it was clearly not envisaged that she would get hold of one or more of the guns.

[David1819]

She had the thoughts because she had schizophrenia but since taking medication for this illness, she didn't express such thoughts again. She was worse - that is 'more agitated' because she hadn't been taking her medication - hence the injections. But we can be sure that she didn't express thoughts about killing her children. parents because her psychiatrist said he didn't.

Show evidence.

[lookout]

During Sheila's first hospital admittance,Ferguson had said that her medication would" show some improvement, but there would be relapses which would be more frequent and more intense as time went on "------as stated in CC's book after he'd had a conversation with the psychiatrist.
Meaning,that another 2 years on,her condition gradually worsened and was so on her last admission.

[notsure]

Then we must look at WHY she was worse. We'll find the answer lays in that she didn't take her medication. THIS was why she had a second breakdown. THIS time, they took no chances. She received her meds intravenously. With reference to her feelings. Dr Ferguson -unless you're suggesting he lied deliberately- could only go by what she told him ie he dealt with the immediacy.

But he told them to give her 150mg and she only got 100. ( I think that's right) this woman was seriously ill and I cannot see your reasoning that she wasnt capable of doing it.

He probably didn't lie but I don't think we have seen all her medical records which would show us where she was at.

[Adam]

Adam wasn't impressed with my Sheila scenario.  Sheila retains control of the rifle.  Once both of the other adults have received non-fatal gunshot wounds, they quichkly lose any advantage that they might have had either individually or collectively.  Sheila has an element of suprise on her side in the conflict: despite any animosity or tenseness during the previous evening, it was clearly not envisaged that she would get hold of one or more of the guns.

Well you're last scenario was "Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls". Which didn't impress me.

[Lucy522]

Adam wasn't impressed with my Sheila scenario.  Sheila retains control of the rifle.  Once both of the other adults have received non-fatal gunshot wounds, they quichkly lose any advantage that they might have had either individually or collectively.  Sheila has an element of suprise on her side in the conflict: despite any animosity or tenseness during the previous evening, it was clearly not envisaged that she would get hold of one or more of the guns.

I really don't see what's so alarming about that? There was another gun upstairs where it wouldn't of been left, maybe Sheila was running amok with that one to and couldn't load it? Once shot whoever had the gun had the advantage be it a schizophrenic weighing 8 stone or a 20 stone man.

[notsure]

Adam wasn't impressed with my Sheila scenario.  Sheila retains control of the rifle.  Once both of the other adults have received non-fatal gunshot wounds, they quichkly lose any advantage that they might have had either individually or collectively.  Sheila has an element of suprise on her side in the conflict: despite any animosity or tenseness during the previous evening, it was clearly not envisaged that she would get hold of one or more of the guns.

Regarding the gun roch, I just don't see why jb would have even mentioned the gun if he had done it. I mean he could have just said his dad had called and said she got hold of one of the guns as per, he didn't need to mention that he'd left one out. Doesn't make sense to me. It was a farm with plenty of guns around. If he planned it surely he would have asked himself ' what will the think if I say I was outside shooting rabbits and left the loaded gun in the kitchen'

[Steve_uk]

Adam

I posted what I would describe as the epicentre of the crime in a few short paragraphs hoping for some decent debate on the subject.  I mostly got baloney in return, to which you made a considerable contribution.  I'd be a hell of a lot more forthcoming with a more complete Sheila scenario if I receieved some sensible responses yesterday, but I had to content myself with the pre-laid plan that Jeremy had cunningly thought out had something to do with Les Dawson's wonky piano playing, I know not why.  So If you really would like a Sheila scenario, I'd like a bit more in the way of serious debate from the likes of yourself before I make further effort.  Finally, I'd be very much obliged if you amended your post like I requested like the gentleman you are so that I can remove my responses, (if you haven't done so already).

Don't mind us Tom: one of my bugbears is the implication that someone's time is more valuable than another's. A possible Sheila scenario is crucial to the case so how about reading the book fully, dipping into the library and archives here and constructing a manuscript worthy of critical appraisal.

[Steve_uk]

Regarding the gun roch, I just don't see why jb would have even mentioned the gun if he had done it. I mean he could have just said his dad had called and said she got hold of one of the guns as per, he didn't need to mention that he'd left one out. Doesn't make sense to me. It was a farm with plenty of guns around. If he planned it surely he would have asked himself ' what will the think if I say I was outside shooting rabbits and left the loaded gun in the kitchen'

Because he was trying to simplify the scenario in the minds of his auditors, knowing full well that his sister was physically and mentally incapable of loading and firing a gun.

[Jane]

But he told them to give her 150mg and she only got 100. ( I think that's right) this woman was seriously ill and I cannot see your reasoning that she wasnt capable of doing it.

He probably didn't lie but I don't think we have seen all her medical records which would show us where she was at.

All the way through, from conversations with Colin to court testimony, he never believed Sheila was capable of violence. Incidentally, neither did Colin.

[Caroline]

Show evidence.

You've read Ferguson's statements - if not, they're in the archives.

[lookout]

Because he was trying to simplify the scenario in the minds of his auditors, knowing full well that his sister was physically and mentally incapable of loading and firing a gun.

Steve I think you underestimated the strength of Sheila. Because her mind was sick was no indicator that her physical strength was interrupted in any way as she was more than capable of doing all of the things which people say were impossible.