Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[Jane]

What we're discussing her is why JB decided to shoot Nevill in the mouth and jaw knowing that neither of them were kill shots, while using a weapon that was totally inappropriate and using only one magazine.  JB couldn't afford to fire wasteful shots.  I would be looking at something more like "here's one in the mouth for all the violence I had to suffer when I was a kid, and here's another for all the sexual abuse I had to put up with just to satisfy your perversions, you old b*****d, but according to CAL's book which is pretty thorough on family history, none of it exists.  Nevill was a thoroughly decent guy, even Jeremy would have known that.

I think Nevill was shot deliberately in the mouth from very close range for a reason and that was simply that he got calls away.

Inappropriate though the weapon may have been, it was still capable of killing. It may have been blind rage which prevented those mouth shots from being accurate enough to kill. To understand how any person FEELS, it becomes necessary to ignore what may be a totally different 'truth' as experienced by others. You'll get no argument from me that Nevill was anything other than "a thoroughly decent guy". You clearly see violence and sexual perversions as being the only forms of abuse inflicted on a child. Believe me, there are others and the effects go just as deep and are equally as lasting.

[lookout]

 From a psychological point of view,I'd have said that shots to the mouth were to shut that person up and largely depends on the shooters state of mind.
A person intent of killing someone wouldn't go for the mouth,it's nonsensical.

[maggie]

What we're discussing her is why JB decided to shoot Nevill in the mouth and jaw knowing that neither of them were kill shots, while using a weapon that was totally inappropriate and using only one magazine.  JB couldn't afford to fire wasteful shots.  I would be looking at something more like "here's one in the mouth for all the violence I had to suffer when I was a kid, and here's another for all the sexual abuse I had to put up with just to satisfy your perversions, you old b*****d, but according to CAL's book which is pretty thorough on family history, none of it exists.  Nevill was a thoroughly decent guy, even Jeremy would have known that.

I think Nevill was shot deliberately in the mouth from very close range for a reason and that was simply that he got calls away.

Or maybe he tried to grab the gun from the killer. Both JB and Sheila were shorter than he was therefore if he managed to get hold of the rifle  he may have been shot in the face while it was at very close range and he was trying to get control of it?  Just a thought.  We assume the face shots were aimed but maybe they were random. Just trying to think outside the box.

[Adam]

What we're discussing her is why JB decided to shoot Nevill in the mouth and jaw knowing that neither of them were kill shots, while using a weapon that was totally inappropriate and using only one magazine.  JB couldn't afford to fire wasteful shots.  I would be looking at something more like "here's one in the mouth for all the violence I had to suffer when I was a kid, and here's another for all the sexual abuse I had to put up with just to satisfy your perversions, you old b*****d, but according to CAL's book which is pretty thorough on family history, none of it exists.  Nevill was a thoroughly decent guy, even Jeremy would have known that.

I think Nevill was shot deliberately in the mouth from very close range for a reason and that was simply that he got calls away.

There is no deciding about it. The allocation of bullets in the main bedroom shows June was shot first. Perhaps 7 times.

By the time he got to his father Nevill was already getting out of bed. Bamber still managed to get two head shots from inches away.

Where in the head would have killed Nevill with one shot ? He needed two shots to kill a zonked out Sheila. Who was shot in the neck.

[maggie]

There is no deciding about it. The allocation of bullets in the main bedroom shows June was shot first. Perhaps 7 times.

By the time he got to his father Nevill was already getting out of bed. Bamber still managed to get two head shots from inches away.

Where in the head would have killed Nevill with one shot ? He needed two shots to kill a zonked out Sheila. Who was shot in the neck.

I cannot imagine it all went smoothly and to plan as you do Adam.  OK the casings leave clues but we're talking about free thinking people and have no idea exactly how things panned out in that bedroom. 
You have it controlled down to every nano second but things rarely work that way in my experience.

[guest1199]

I cannot imagine it all went smoothly and to plan as you do Adam.  OK the casings leave clues but we're talking about free thinking people and have no idea exactly how things panned out in that bedroom. 
You have it controlled down to every nano second but things rarely work that way in my experience.

I agree with that, I've noticed a bit of rigid thinking here.  There is no evidence, that anyone here has argued so far, that Nevill was even in the bedroom when June was shot, they also may have been shot in installments with the twins shot first perhaps only taking a couple of shots each at that stage.  The casings offer a fair clue to where they were shot but the timeline and movements of Nevill are more fluid. One thing that is for certain is that the theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after he was shot in the mouth is questionable.

[maggie]

I agree with that, I've noticed a bit of rigid thinking here.  There is no evidence, that anyone here has argued so far, that Nevill was even in the bedroom when June was shot, they also may have been shot in installments with the twins shot first perhaps only taking a couple of shots each at that stage.  The casings offer a fair clue to where they were shot but the timeline and movements of Nevill are more fluid. One thing that is for certain is that the theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after he was shot in the mouth is questionable.

I agree with most of that but I question strongly whether Neil would be able to speak at all but certainly not clearly with a fractured jaw. Think after a hit like that he would be struggling really badly.

[lookout]

Calls made by Neville would have obviously been done before he'd been shot in the mouth ?

[maggie]

Calls made by Neville would have obviously been done before he'd been shot in the mouth ?

I agree, if there was a call surely it was made before Neil was aware any shots had been fired otherwise the phone call would have been completely different imo. 

[Jane]

I cannot imagine it all went smoothly and to plan as you do Adam.  OK the casings leave clues but we're talking about free thinking people and have no idea exactly how things panned out in that bedroom. 
You have it controlled down to every nano second but things rarely work that way in my experience.

I agree with that, I've noticed a bit of rigid thinking here.  There is no evidence, that anyone here has argued so far, that Nevill was even in the bedroom when June was shot, they also may have been shot in installments with the twins shot first perhaps only taking a couple of shots each at that stage.  The casings offer a fair clue to where they were shot but the timeline and movements of Nevill are more fluid. One thing that is for certain is that the theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after he was shot in the mouth is questionable.

Maggie and Tom, I couldn't agree more. Adam's entire scenario and lists are devoid of the emotions of the victims -I think they have to be to make them work- and I think they'd certainly have put a spanner in the works. The 'plan' undoubtedly wouldn't have gone to plan because he wouldn't have allowed for the victims acting in any way other than how he'd imagined they would to facilitate the crime.

[guest1199]

I agree with most of that but I question strongly whether Neil would be able to speak at all but certainly not clearly with a fractured jaw. Think after a hit like that he would be struggling really badly.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm saying that theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after the mouth shots is questionable, since it implies that Nevill was shot at the same time as June.   CAL makes a great deal of this in her book with reference to Vanezis.

It's clear that he could have had the opportunity to get calls away before he was shot in the mouth.

[Adam]

I agree with that, I've noticed a bit of rigid thinking here.  There is no evidence, that anyone here has argued so far, that Nevill was even in the bedroom when June was shot, they also may have been shot in installments with the twins shot first perhaps only taking a couple of shots each at that stage.  The casings offer a fair clue to where they were shot but the timeline and movements of Nevill are more fluid. One thing that is for certain is that the theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after he was shot in the mouth is questionable.

I have said Nevill was in the bedroom when June started to get shot.

It was 2am.

He slept next to June. Every night.

There were 4 bullet casings in the bedroom.

He was found bare footed in his pyjamas. As if he had been sleeping next to June at 2am & had to quickly get out of bed. Due to being shot at.


Anyway, if this is you're strongest argument from CAL's book. That no one knows where Nevill was when June started getting shot, it must be very pro guilt. But I agree, no one knows as no one from here was there.

[maggie]

Maggie and Tom, I couldn't agree more. Adam's entire scenario and lists are devoid of the emotions of the victims -I think they have to be to make them work- and I think they'd certainly have put a spanner in the works. The 'plan' undoubtedly wouldn't have gone to plan because he wouldn't have allowed for the victims acting in any way other than how he'd imagined they would to facilitate the crime.

Exactly Jane, totally agree.

[maggie]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm saying that theory of Nevill not being able to get a call away after the mouth shots is questionable, since it implies that Nevill was shot at the same time as June.   CAL makes a great deal of this in her book with reference to Vanezis.

It's clear that he could have had the opportunity to get calls away before he was shot in the mouth.

It's ages since I read her book Tom. Sorry I misunderstood you.

[guest1199]

At this moment in time I'm trying to work out a plausible scenario of the crime from beginning to end.  I think it's the responsibility of everyone posting here to do the same regardless of who they think did the killings, not maybe this or maybe that.  I think that if people are going to refer to a pre-laid plan, they had better flesh it out and stand by it or lose integrity. 

As it stands, with the information I've got, I think Sheila committed the crime.  The theory repeatedly asserted in CAL's pro-guilt book is that Sheila had no knowledge of guns; this is only partly true since a child can load the weapon and fire it, in the U.S. they most certainly do with this type of gun.  What Sheila didn't know was how completely inadequate the weapon and ammunition was for killing adult human beings, while Jeremy would have known with his experience of guns.  What we have here is not "overkill" but underkill. 

Sheila would have discovered this as the shots that she thought would kill outright were only resulting in cripplings and maimings, that's why I think she revisited each body and fired a coup de grace when they were all in no position to fight back.  From that point onwards Sheila would have been utterly demented, she wanted to die, and perhaps needed to die, but she had a gun that was was not guaranteed to kill her if she turned the gun on herself.  She could have ended up with crippling brain injuries or paralysis, not the instant deliverance to God and her twins as she wanted. 

She was alive when the cops broke in.