Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[Jane]

Ah! the old reversal of responsibility trick.

Well after all the noise that those die-hards Nevill and June made in their protracted demise, Jeremy now looks into their room only to find that they are not there and have ran away and hid somewhere.  Surely Jeremy had all this possibility worked out in his pre-laid plan.  I didn't originate the pre-laid plan theory, you did, you must know it's contents.

Hoots

Oh. I didn't have the plan. Jeremy did. As it seems you already know. It nearly worked.

[Caroline]

Oh. I didn't have the plan. Jeremy did. It nearly worked.

Had dogs all my life Jane, they don't bark at their owners and those who are familiar to them. Long before they saw Jeremy - they would have smelled him.

[Lucy522]

As I understand it the only real evidence that Nevill was shot upstairs is the number of cartridge cases found upstairs compared to the number found downstairs.  Is there any other evidence that supports Nevill being in bed when June was shot?

I'm just struggling to understand if the facial shots were caused upstairs, where is all the blood? Heads/faces bleed profusely and id of thought there would of been a lot more blood on the landing down the stairs etc?

[Steve_uk]

I'm just struggling to understand if the facial shots were caused upstairs, where is all the blood? Heads/faces bleed profusely and id of thought there would of been a lot more blood on the landing down the stairs etc?

The blood was on the bedspread, on the wallpaper in the hall downstairs and on the floor in the kitchen by the telephone.

[Lucy522]

The blood was on the bedspread, on the wallpaper in the hall downstairs and on the floor in the kitchen by the telephone.

Do we have crime scene photos of this Steve? I'm sure I read there were 2 spots in the bedroom that couldn't be positively identified, never heard of the wallpaper or hallway

[Adam]

Let's try another one. In CAL's dramatized account she has JB killing June and Nevill first, while the kids slept on oblivious.  You can say what you like about the noise of the gun, perhaps it was minimal.  But when people die of multiple GSW's it's doubtful if they do it all quietly, there may have be screaming, shouting, crying and pleading going on.

In the real world, with real world logic Jeremy would have realised during his approach to WHF that the twins could  be alerted, running about the house looking for places to hide while all this was going on, but no, jeremy had all sussed out and included sorcery in his pre-laid plan (remember that one Jane J, the pre-laid plan that needs no definition), the twins slept on oblivious, and were compliant enough to die the same way.

Jeremy used the same sorcery on the dogs who despite the quote below from CAL's book didn't even offer a bark to alert Nevill who in the real world would have found Jeremy climbing through the window with a shotgun barrel pressed against his nose. In the real world it was Sheila who did the dirty deed, but this isn't the real world is it?

It's the fantasy world of of the pro-guilt argument where cunning pre-laid plans and sorcery exist, or perhaps Nevill and June decided that it was best to die quietly in their agony rather than wake the twins.

From CAL's book:

"Both dogs were habitually alert to intruders. Crispy was variously described as ‘very noisy’, ‘lively and always nipping at people’s ankles’ with a ‘high-pitched yappy bark’ that he used to good effect on callers. Bruce would also bark when anyone approached the house".

Hoots

How would the twins be alerted by Bamber approaching WHF ? It was 2am & they would be in a deep sleep.

Where was the outside dog based ? If it was on the other side of WHF then there is no reason why it would bark.

There is a thread on Crispy. Dogs do sleep. If it did wake there is no guarantee it would wake Nevill & June.

There is no reason why a slseping  Sheila or the twins would wake from behind closed doors. The silencer was on. Nevill was shot in the jaw & ran downstsirs & June shot 7 times & in the throat. So no shouting. David persuaded me that the twins may have been shot first. I agreed but believe Bamber would have shot each one just once before entering the main bedroom. So both twins already dead.

All these are small risks. Bamber was prepared to take them.

[Steve_uk]

Do we have crime scene photos of this Steve? I'm sure I read there were 2 spots in the bedroom that couldn't be positively identified, never heard of the wallpaper or hallway

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html

[Adam]

People seem to think Bamber wouldn't have attempted the massacre because there may be risks involved.

Of course there were risks. He was attempting a 2am massacre. But the huge financial & emotional rewards meant it was worth attempting.

As it happened things didn't go to plan. Nevill put up a fight, Bamber had to re load twice & take the silencer off.

[guest1199]

Simple really - he was familiar to them!

Our family had a dog too, who barked at everybody, it's their way of welcoming someone, It's also their way of defending their territory, they do both by barking, that's all they can do. It has to be said that a dog gets to know a persons habits; however there is nothing habitual in Jeremy's movements that night if he did commit the crime.  If Jeremy made a habit of climbing through a window in the dead of night at WHF and the dogs were used to it I'd understand, but I think you're havering as we would say up here. 

Hoots!

[maggie]

I'm just struggling to understand if the facial shots were caused upstairs, where is all the blood? Heads/faces bleed profusely and id of thought there would of been a lot more blood on the landing down the stairs etc?

I do wonder about that Lucy, as you say mouths etc. bleed profusely and Nevill lost some teeth as well.  They were horrendous injuries and he would have bled profusely and also struggled to cope with the shock and trauma.  It's only in films that people carry on as normal.  Chances are he wouldn't have felt the pain but it's no joke to have bullets pumped into you face breaking your jaw bone and your teeth and he must have been traumatised by it. Poor man.

[guest1199]

Oh. I didn't have the plan. Jeremy did. As it seems you already know. It nearly worked.

I'm sorry, what was the plan again?

Hoots!

[Roch]

Had dogs all my life Jane, they don't bark at their owners and those who are familiar to them. Long before they saw Jeremy - they would have smelled him.

That's true - but they might bark if they just heard him.

[JackieD]

I'm talking a 360 degree turnaround.

So you have never given an opinion on Barbara Wilson on here

[guest1199]

How would the twins be alerted by Bamber approaching WHF ? It was 2am & they would be in a deep sleep.

Where was the outside dog based ? If it was on the other side of WHF then there is no reason why it would bark.

There is a thread on Crispy. Dogs do sleep. If it did wake there is no guarantee it would wake Nevill & June.

There is no reason why a slseping  Sheila or the twins would wake from behind closed doors. The silencer was on. Nevill was shot in the jaw & ran downstsirs & June shot 7 times & in the throat. So no shouting. David persuaded me that the twins may have been shot first. I agreed but believe Bamber would have shot each one just once before entering the main bedroom. So both twins already dead.

All these are small risks. Bamber was prepared to take them.

Sorry Adam, you seem to have misunderstood my post.  I don't think it's that impenetrable.

Hoots!

[Steve_uk]

So you have never given an opinion on Barbara Wilson on here

Barbara Wilson feels guilty that she didn't speak out early enough to save five lives. She was a survivor of the massacre but a victim of the economic climate of the time whereby if you lost your job at her age you were finished.