Author Topic: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.  (Read 103421 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #480 on: April 15, 2017, 03:44:PM »
If Jeremy is going to massacre his family he has to know exactly how he's going to do this.  How not to alert Bruce, how to stop Crispy barking at him as he climbed in and alerting Nevil who would waste no time in coming down stairs to investigate with JB finding a shotgun pressed against his nose. What order he is going to eliminate each of his family etc. That sort of thing.  I'm getting baloney so far!

Hoots!

Why don't you work these out for yourself ? Bamber would have & spent months doing it. There are threads on the dogs, window & people waking at 2pm.

I've posted my scenario of how Bamber committed the massacre. It was easy to do. Although Bamber would have expected it to be even easier. Without Nevill waking.

It is impossible to submit a Sheila scenario which matches the crime scene from anyone. I've been trying to get this from people since joining. Nugs & Susan have refused, Mike just said 'by shooting them' & Roch said 'he can't explain' Nevill's phone calls.

But feel free to tell me how Sheila did it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 03:45:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest1199

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #481 on: April 15, 2017, 03:45:PM »
Why are you assuming that he DIDN'T know all that he felt was necessary for him know to accomplish it? You're viewing this from the only place you know, which is your own frame of reference. Jeremy's was quite different from your own.

OK let me put it this way.  If I were to conclude that JB murdered his family in cold blood, I would have to be fairly certain that I knew what his strategy was and exactly how he went about killing his family in a fairly detailed moment by moment, location by location scenario.

I would conclude that if I didn't know that with some degree of certainty, I would have no right to conclude that JB was guilty.  I don't think that JB committed the murders and subsequently no such plan exists; therefore I am asking others in their pro-guilt stance to take that responsibility since the "plan" was their terminology, not mine. 

However it is clear that judging by the responses I'm getting that the pro-guilt members do not consider  that knowing what JB's plan was is crucial to their conclusion of his guilt, I think that lack's integrity and seriously weakens the pro-guilt stance but hey-ho. So I think I see where your coming from JaneJ.  People arrive at their specific conclusions for very different reasons, so I can deal with that.

I don't want to be posting much more here for the time being, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hoots!

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #482 on: April 15, 2017, 03:50:PM »
OK let me put it this way.  If I were to conclude that JB murdered his family in cold blood, I would have to be fairly certain that I knew what his strategy was and exactly how he went about killing his family in a fairly detailed moment by moment, location by location scenario.

I would conclude that if I didn't know that with some degree of certainty, I would have no right to conclude that JB was guilty.  I don't think that JB committed the murders and subsequently no such plan exists; therefore I am asking others in their pro-guilt stance to take that responsibility since the "plan" was their terminology, not mine. 

However it is clear that judging by the responses I'm getting that the pro-guilt members do not consider  that knowing what JB's plan was is crucial to their conclusion of his guilt, I think that lack's integrity and seriously weakens the pro-guilt stance but hey-ho. So I think I see where your coming from JaneJ.  People arrive at their specific conclusions for very different reasons, so I can deal with that.

I don't want to be posting much more here for the time being, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hoots!

I didn't read this. But a strategy is actually an interesting point.

Bamber had months to plan the massacre. It was easy to cycle without being seen, enter without being heard & shoot sleeping people at 2am with a silencer attached. Only Nevill threw a spanner in the works by waking seconds before fatal bedroom shots.  However people still refuse to believe Bamber did it.

However Sheila had no plan, was up against an awake man twice as big her & was taking Haloperidol. However was supposed to have committed this highly difficult massacre. Letting Nevill spend 10 minutes making two phone calls 16 minutes apart prior to brutally beating his face & body.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 04:00:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #483 on: April 15, 2017, 04:00:PM »
Some good posting TomG. Thanks for your contributions. I'm going to miss some decent posts.

guest1199

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #484 on: April 15, 2017, 04:01:PM »
Why don't you work these out for yourself ? Bamber would have & spent months doing it. There are threads on the dogs, window & people waking at 2pm.

I've posted my scenario of how Bamber committed the massacre. It was easy to do. Although Bamber would have expected it to be even easier. Without Nevill waking.

It is impossible to submit a Sheila scenario which matches the crime scene from anyone. I've been trying to get this from people since joining. Nugs & Susan have refused, Mike just said 'by shooting them' & Roch said 'he can't explain' Nevill's phone calls.

But feel free to tell me how Sheila did it.

* That is a very good point and probably redresses the balance of my post above.  I think it's probably the responsibility of both sides of the argument to come up with a plausible scenario for both possibilities.  If we can't do this then how can we reasonably conclude that either of them were to blame; we could only conclude that maybe it was one and maybe it was the other?  We would be in no position to judge. 

Hoots!

Offline Jane

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #485 on: April 15, 2017, 04:03:PM »
OK let me put it this way.  If I were to conclude that JB murdered his family in cold blood, I would have to be fairly certain that I knew what his strategy was and exactly how he went about killing his family in a fairly detailed moment by moment, location by location scenario.

I would conclude that if I didn't know that with some degree of certainty, I would have no right to conclude that JB was guilty.  I don't think that JB committed the murders and subsequently no such plan exists; therefore I am asking others in their pro-guilt stance to take that responsibility since the "plan" was their terminology, not mine. 

However it is clear that judging by the responses I'm getting that the pro-guilt members do not consider  that knowing what JB's plan was is crucial to their conclusion of his guilt, I think that lack's integrity and seriously weakens the pro-guilt stance but hey-ho. So I think I see where your coming from JaneJ.  People arrive at their specific conclusions for very different reasons, so I can deal with that.

I don't want to be posting much more here for the time being, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hoots!

Well, I'd have to argue that you'd need to be him before you understood. One of us MIGHT, accidentally hit on it -even share it with you- but unless you were open to believing it, you'd probably deny it but just because you wouldn't want to believe it wouldn't mean it didn't happen. I don't believe it falls to any of us to make you believe that which you may choose not to. As neither of us are forcing our views down the other's throats, I remain perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #486 on: April 15, 2017, 04:15:PM »
* That is a very good point and probably redresses the balance of my post above.  I think it's probably the responsibility of both sides of the argument to come up with a plausible scenario for both possibilities.  If we can't do this then how can we reasonably conclude that either of them were to blame; we could only conclude that maybe it was one and maybe it was the other?  We would be in no position to judge. 

Hoots!

Basically Bamber planned to  -

Cycle to WHF on June's bike.

Get in through the loose/open bathroom window.

Pick up his loaded rifle with silencer.

Shoot everyone while they slept at 2am.

Stage the scene.

Bang the kitchen window shut behind him.

Cycle home.

Clean up.

Ring the police & insinuate Sheila.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 04:18:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest1199

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #487 on: April 15, 2017, 04:24:PM »
I didn't read this. But a strategy is actually an interesting point.

Bamber had months to plan the massacre. It was easy to cycle without being seen, enter without being heard & shoot sleeping people at 2am with a silencer attached. Only Nevill threw a spanner in the works by waking seconds before fatal bedroom shots.  However people still refuse to believe Bamber did it.

However Sheila had no plan, was up against an awake man twice as big her & was taking Haloperidol. However was supposed to have committed this highly difficult massacre. Letting Nevill spend 10 minutes making two phone calls 16 minutes apart prior to brutally beating his face & body.

With reference to my more recent posts; I would be obliged to offer a Sheila did it scenario to counter your points, however I would see it as my responsibility to be as thorough as reasonably possible, I don't have that thoroughness yet, do you?  I don't think anyone posting here has that thoroughness required to back up our conclusions of guilt or innocence.  I've been wondering why people here have clocked up an astonishing number of posts asserting either JB's guilt or innocence.  If they were so certain they'd have no need to post anymore.  My guess is that it's the fact that deep down the case is still a mystery that keeps them glued to it.

Hoots!

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #488 on: April 15, 2017, 06:01:PM »
Some good posting TomG. Thanks for your contributions. I'm going to miss some decent posts.
Hi lookout welcome back.  I'm sure I speak for many when I say this site is simply not the same without you.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #489 on: April 15, 2017, 06:14:PM »
With reference to my more recent posts; I would be obliged to offer a Sheila did it scenario to counter your points, however I would see it as my responsibility to be as thorough as reasonably possible, I don't have that thoroughness yet, do you?  I don't think anyone posting here has that thoroughness required to back up our conclusions of guilt or innocence.  I've been wondering why people here have clocked up an astonishing number of posts asserting either JB's guilt or innocence.  If they were so certain they'd have no need to post anymore.  My guess is that it's the fact that deep down the case is still a mystery that keeps them glued to it.

Hoots!
Jeremy picks up the Anschutz he had left in the barn earlier(was this why Nevill was short with Barbara because he noticed a gun missing?)  enters by a downstairs window, one he had previously left ajar or which could be prised open with a jemmy without leaving a mark, makes his way to the twins room, shoots them both once each, enters the master bedroom where he blasts both his parents, rushes downstairs to reload whereupon he meets Nevill who has managed to stagger downstairs, they struggle for control of the rifle, during which time the lightshade gets smashed, Jeremy taken aback pumps more shots into Nevill, rushes back upstairs, encounters June in the doorway, shoots her between the eyes, re-enters the twins room where he produces the arc pattern to the heads, opens Sheila's door, leads her to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, proceeds downstairs again where he bashes Nevill with the stock, then prods him with a heated rifle to ascertain his demise, goes back upstairs to stage the death scene but finds Sheila alive, shoots her once again and tosses the bible atop her body along with the rifle,dials his Goldhanger number from the kitchen telephone then exits the property the way he came, bangs the window shut and heads home.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 06:20:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #490 on: April 15, 2017, 06:39:PM »
With reference to my more recent posts; I would be obliged to offer a Sheila did it scenario to counter your points, however I would see it as my responsibility to be as thorough as reasonably possible, I don't have that thoroughness yet, do you?  I don't think anyone posting here has that thoroughness required to back up our conclusions of guilt or innocence.  I've been wondering why people here have clocked up an astonishing number of posts asserting either JB's guilt or innocence.  If they were so certain they'd have no need to post anymore.  My guess is that it's the fact that deep down the case is still a mystery that keeps them glued to it.

Hoots!

There is a recent thread regarding how Sheila did it. Buddy kindly provided a new scenario on it. Unfortunately it had to be dismissed as Nevill couldn't speak after receiving his upstairs shots. Buddy's counter claim that Nevill was not shot upstairs has also been dismissed.

You are aware of the crime scene, body positions,  bullet allocation, kitchen fight, reloads & 1/2 phone calls. So it should be easy to create you're scenario.

Look forward to reading it.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 06:47:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #491 on: April 15, 2017, 06:45:PM »
Hi lookout welcome back.  I'm sure I speak for many when I say this site is simply not the same without you.





Steve,how lovely of you to say that. I'd never want another week like it,I felt about 90 !

guest1199

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #492 on: April 15, 2017, 07:58:PM »
There is a recent thread regarding how Sheila did it. Buddy kindly provided a new scenario on it. Unfortunately it had to be dismissed as Nevill couldn't speak after receiving his upstairs shots. Buddy's counter claim that Nevill was not shot upstairs has also been dismissed.

You are aware of the crime scene, body positions,  bullet allocation, kitchen fight, reloads & 1/2 phone calls. So it should be easy to create you're scenario.

Look forward to reading it.

Well it won't be any time soon, I could certainly respond to the mouth shot scenario right now, but I'm out of here for the time being. 

Good day to you Sir!

Hoots

Offline Lucy522

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #493 on: April 15, 2017, 08:47:PM »
If Jeremy is going to massacre his family he has to know exactly how he's going to do this.  How not to alert Bruce, how to stop Crispy barking at him as he climbed in and alerting Nevil who would waste no time in coming down stairs to investigate with JB finding a shotgun pressed against his nose. What order he is going to eliminate each of his family etc. That sort of thing.  I'm getting baloney so far!

Hoots!
I don't get it either tom. How did he even know they'd all be asleep? How did this happen without the twins so much as stirring? Or were they killed first? They were the least threat?

Offline lookout

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #494 on: April 15, 2017, 09:02:PM »
Neville would have lambasted Jeremy if he'd entered the farmhouse via a window,especially given the alleged conversation between BW and himself about " not turning his back " and all that. It would have been expected I'd have thought--------forewarned is forearmed and all that.
Whereas with Sheila,it would have been unexpected,a nasty surprise. Anyone taken aback by shock or surprise just isn't prepared for the unexpected.