Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[guest1199]

So EP shot her with the massacre rifle. After Sheila had been prononced dead.

This issue is a waste of time. It's universally agreed Sheila was shot twice. An expert at the time mistakedly putting in his notes it was one shot is conspiracy theory making of the highest order.

We're talking about a cop surgeon with 30 years experience. I don't beleive he got it wrong.  Why on earth would the cops want to shoot her again with the "massacre rifle" as you put it.

Hoots!

[Adam]

The doc only mentioned one gunshot wound for all the victims I think.  It was probably practice to do so.

Great. So TomG's question is answered. EP did not shoot Sheila with the murder weapon after she had been prononced dead.

[Caroline]

What I was trying to say was -  that if he had botched her suicide by failing to kill her outright - then that's a MASSIVE blunder in his plans.  Quite why he would think she would immediately die from one shot is beyond me anyway - as he had just pumped multiple shots in to all the other victims!  So where is his reasoning going - by thinking he could finish off Sheila as the last victim with just one shot? Again - it doesn't add-up.

Aah but this is getting to the crux of the matter though.  You have consistently argued that hypothetically, the police would have no need to explain or hide the fact that they shot Sheila in the course of their duty.

However it's not that simple is it? If it's the murder weapon that actually killed her - it's not that simple to explain.  Yes - they could say struggle etc.  Nevertheless - those in the know about tactical firearms operations and police tactics might raise an eyebrow or two.

They might raise an eyebrow if Sheila was killed in a siege situation by a police officer, but would be OK about framing an innocent man? I'm really not sure where you are going with this? If she were shot in  a struggle or by accident, it wouldn't warrant the framing of an innocent man.

[Caroline]

The doc only mentioned one gunshot wound for all the victims I think.  It was probably practice to do so.

No, he did actually state that he only noticed one.

[Roch]

Bamber testified he was proficient with the murder weapon. However I don't believe he killed anyone prior to the massacre. As mentioned, the first shot was effective but not fatal. So what ?

So what??  He's just gone to enormous trouble to plan and stage a multiple murder, involving ferocious fighting and multiple gunshots, getting out of a building totally secured from the inside, phone calls, alleged phone calls, night bike rides etc etc, leading the police a merry dance... 

And he cant even hit the target for an over sedated woman - who is arguably the most crucial of his victims in his plan?

Ok. You believe EP may have shot Sheila after she had been pronounced dead. That is fine.

That's not my theory - it's one of Mike Tesko's theories.

[Adam]

So what??  He's just gone to enormous trouble to plan and stage a multiple murder, involving ferocious fighting and multiple gunshots, getting out of a building totally secured from the inside, phone calls, alleged phone calls, night bike rides etc etc, leading the police a merry dance... 

And he cant even hit the target for an over sedated woman - who is arguably the most crucial of his victims in his plan?

That's not my theory - it's one of Mike Tesko's theories.

You said in post 339 that 'you leave the door open' to the theory that EP shot Sheila with the murder weapon after she had been prononced dead.

This was before then saying in another post it was practice for the crime scene expert to say everyone had been killed with one shot.

[Roch]

They might raise an eyebrow if Sheila was killed in a siege situation by a police officer, but would be OK about framing an innocent man? I'm really not sure where you are going with this? If she were shot in  a struggle or by accident, it wouldn't warrant the framing of an innocent man.

OK.  Do you agree that if she was shot in an 'alleged struggle' (as a cover for having been shot accidentally), the police at the scene (when it actually occurred), would have likely experienced stress, as to how to proceed?  Especially given that it was the alleged murder weapon.  Stress that could impact upon decision making - which was effectively on the hoof.

I do think some police will have baulked at the idea of framing Jeremy Bamber.  However disconcerted that individual officers may have felt, bar raising their concerns internally - what other options do they have (options that will not effectively destroy their career?).  It was the ACC who sanctioned the investigation of Bamber - therefore the pressure was created from the top of the command structure.

[Adam]

So what??  He's just gone to enormous trouble to plan and stage a multiple murder, involving ferocious fighting and multiple gunshots, getting out of a building totally secured from the inside, phone calls, alleged phone calls, night bike rides etc etc, leading the police a merry dance... 

And he cant even hit the target for an over sedated woman - who is arguably the most crucial of his victims in his plan?

That's not my theory - it's one of Mike Tesko's theories.

He did hit the target. It was an inch away from the fatal bullet.

It was impossible for Sheila to have fired the second shot. To suggest EP fired the second shot after she had been prononced dead, rather than Bamber, carries no weight.

[Roch]

He did hit the target. It was an inch away from the fatal bullet.

It was impossible for Sheila to have fired the second shot. To suggest EP fired the second shot after she had been prononced dead, rather than Bamber, carries no weight.

Considering they were in the farmhouse and he wasn't - I think it carries some knd of weight

[Adam]

OK.  Do you agree that if she was shot in an 'alleged struggle' (as a cover for having been shot accidentally), the police at the scene (when it actually occurred), would have likely experienced stress, as to how to proceed?  Especially given that it was the alleged murder weapon.  Stress that could impact upon decision making - which was effectively on the hoof.

I do think some police will have baulked at the idea of framing Jeremy Bamber.  However disconcerted that individual officers may have felt, bar raising their concerns internally - what other options do they have (options that will not effectively destroy their career?).  It was the ACC who sanctioned the investigation of Bamber - therefore the pressure was created from the top of the command structure.

The raid team under stress ? Ahhh. I know what, let's frame the son.

There would be no struggle with Sheila. Any hostility from her & she would be shot. With a bullet from a raid team rifle.

Anyway Sheila was on Haloperidol & unable to do basic things.

[guest1199]

Eh? That's when she was pronounced dead, not when she died! The doc couldn't know the exact time of death given that he wasn't there.

Caroline.  At 8.44am Dr Craig makes it quite clear Sheila had one GSW regardless of when the first shot was fired.  It has been suggested by others that JB inflicted the second shot.  I am pointing out that JB couldn't have inflicted the second shot when he was outside with the cops.  So who fired the second shot after 8.44am when there was only one GSW? 

Hoots!

[Steve_uk]

OK.  Do you agree that if she was shot in an 'alleged struggle' (as a cover for having been shot accidentally), the police at the scene (when it actually occurred), would have likely experienced stress, as to how to proceed?  Especially given that it was the alleged murder weapon.  Stress that could impact upon decision making - which was effectively on the hoof.

I do think some police will have baulked at the idea of framing Jeremy Bamber.  However disconcerted that individual officers may have felt, bar raising their concerns internally - what other options do they have (options that will not effectively destroy their career?).  It was the ACC who sanctioned the investigation of Bamber - therefore the pressure was created from the top of the command structure.

There's no way the murder weapon would have discharged accidentally. Had Sheila been alive and resisted the Police would have simply claimed self-defence. Their boss DCI Taff Jones was content with a guilty Sheila anyway, so where on earth does the cover up start?

[guest1199]

Great. So TomG's question is answered. EP did not shoot Sheila with the murder weapon after she had been prononced dead.

So you're saying that it was standard practice for a police surgeon the conclude one GSW to all the victims even though they had been riddled with bullets?

[Steve_uk]

Caroline.  At 8.44am Dr Craig makes it quite clear Sheila had one GSW regardless of when the first shot was fired.  It has been suggested by others that JB inflicted the second shot.  I am pointing out that JB couldn't have inflicted the second shot when he was outside with the cops.  So who fired the second shot after 8.44am when there was only one GSW? 

Hoots!

He missed the second shot due to his doddery status. You are either being deliberately provocative or inadvertently obtuse.

[Adam]

Caroline.  At 8.44am Dr Craig makes it quite clear Sheila had one GSW regardless of when the first shot was fired.  It has been suggested by others that JB inflicted the second shot.  I am pointing out that JB couldn't have inflicted the second shot when he was outside with the cops.  So who fired the second shot after 8.44am when there was only one GSW? 

Hoots!

Roch answered this in post 343. Did you miss it ?

If you don't agree with Roch, then feel free to believe EP shot Sheila with the murder weapon. After she had been prononced dead.