Should child criminals be granted anonymity?

[lookout]

I agree with your reaction to the crime  Lookout but there is always cause and effect imo.  If these children became so evil there has to be a reason, although I am not trying to excuse the crime.  They were either born that way or they were taught to behave that way.  Children learn by example imo.

As we all know,a child learns " right from wrong " at a very early age. I agree that children learn by example,but not all of them do, either because of an inborn rebellious nature or a mental health issue.
Many children from bad backgrounds do well in life because of their aim and determination to get themselves out of a bad family situation, as they look to the future. Granted,this was more a time when job prospects were more of a guarantee than now but no teen " in their right mind " would have resorted to murder when things were tough.

I can't bring myself to excuse the monstrous behaviour of these teens and the excuse of a bad family background doesn't do it for me at all. Not when I've known of horrendous family situations in the past where neglected children had to deal with alcoholic parents.I've seen it all Maggie and heartbreaking as it was,those children had no thoughts of crime in any way,just to do well at school and get a job as far away from that household as they could.

This is why my reasoning is so diverse and controversial.

[Steve_uk]

The professionals have their work cut out with these two. Will they be up to the job? I can't help wondering what happened to them in Infant School, Junior School, Secondary School. Did they form no emotional attachment to anyone and were they so inexpressive and insecure they both fell under the radar?

Will they ever be released? Can they ever be released?

[Steve_uk]

As we all know,a child learns " right from wrong " at a very early age. I agree that children learn by example,but not all of them do, either because of an inborn rebellious nature or a mental health issue.
Many children from bad backgrounds do well in life because of their aim and determination to get themselves out of a bad family situation, as they look to the future. Granted,this was more a time when job prospects were more of a guarantee than now but no teen " in their right mind " would have resorted to murder when things were tough.

I can't bring myself to excuse the monstrous behaviour of these teens and the excuse of a bad family background doesn't do it for me at all. Not when I've known of horrendous family situations in the past where neglected children had to deal with alcoholic parents.I've seen it all Maggie and heartbreaking as it was,those children had no thoughts of crime in any way,just to do well at school and get a job as far away from that household as they could.

This is why my reasoning is so diverse and controversial.

That's interesting Lookout. They were both only 14 years old at the time so I'm wondering whether socio-economic factors played a part? They would be just starting their GCSE courses. We don't know enough of the background yet apart from the girl claiming her mother favoritized her sister over her.

I also have doubts about releasing their names to the public at so young an age.

[lookout]

I have to question the teaching methods this day and age compared to the 50's,Steve. In fact,I question everything in this " modern " society and why everything changed,not always for the better.

As regards these two monsters,they should never be released,as someone who enjoyed " the smell of blood " will forever be a danger. This is far from normal.

[Jane]

As we all know,a child learns " right from wrong " at a very early age. I agree that children learn by example,but not all of them do, either because of an inborn rebellious nature or a mental health issue.
Many children from bad backgrounds do well in life because of their aim and determination to get themselves out of a bad family situation, as they look to the future. Granted,this was more a time when job prospects were more of a guarantee than now but no teen " in their right mind " would have resorted to murder when things were tough.

I can't bring myself to excuse the monstrous behaviour of these teens and the excuse of a bad family background doesn't do it for me at all. Not when I've known of horrendous family situations in the past where neglected children had to deal with alcoholic parents.I've seen it all Maggie and heartbreaking as it was,those children had no thoughts of crime in any way,just to do well at school and get a job as far away from that household as they could.

This is why my reasoning is so diverse and controversial.

Your reasoning to me is neither diverse nor controversial. Simply devoid of empathy. No one is suggesting that such appalling behaviours are condoned, nor murder excused -although you excuse Jeremy- and simply saying "it's heartbreaking" is a cerebral, rather than an emotional response. Understanding ISN'T condoning. You appear to live in a world in which there are prescribed behaviours with books of instructions on how such behaviours are acted out. The problem for many is that they can't read and they world of which you speak is long gone.

[Steve_uk]

I have to question the teaching methods this day and age compared to the 50's,Steve. In fact,I question everything in this " modern " society and why everything changed,not always for the better.

As regards these two monsters,they should never be released,as someone who enjoyed " the smell of blood " will forever be a danger. This is far from normal.

I wouldn't like to judge at this stage but they are for sure symptomatic of the failure of modern society which puts the individual above all else, though fortunately an extremely rare case.

[Jane]

I have to question the teaching methods this day and age compared to the 50's,Steve. In fact,I question everything in this " modern " society and why everything changed,not always for the better.

As regards these two monsters,they should never be released,as someone who enjoyed " the smell of blood " will forever be a danger. This is far from normal.

OK. Emotionally, they may be the monsters you accuse them of being. In fact, they're both horrendously damaged children. Damaged to the point where it appears they have no feelings. The days are long gone when we'd lock and chain them up and throw away the key. However, I can offer nothing by way of suggestion for how they might productively and positively live out their lives. I'm afraid the island, advocated by Steve, is becoming rather overcrowded.

[Steve_uk]

OK. Emotionally, they may be the monsters you accuse them of being. In fact, they're both horrendously damaged children. Damaged to the point where it appears they have no feelings. The days are long gone when we'd lock and chain them up and throw away the key. However, I can offer nothing by way of suggestion for how they might productively and positively live out their lives. I'm afraid the island, advocated by Steve, is becoming rather overcrowded.

I don't think we know enough about the circumstances of the case, but whatever they are they are going to be interned for many years, I wonder whether the professionals will be up to the job and their rehabilitation has been made harder to say the least by divulging their identities to the public.

[maggie]

As we all know,a child learns " right from wrong " at a very early age. I agree that children learn by example,but not all of them do, either because of an inborn rebellious nature or a mental health issue.
Many children from bad backgrounds do well in life because of their aim and determination to get themselves out of a bad family situation, as they look to the future. Granted,this was more a time when job prospects were more of a guarantee than now but no teen " in their right mind " would have resorted to murder when things were tough.

I can't bring myself to excuse the monstrous behaviour of these teens and the excuse of a bad family background doesn't do it for me at all. Not when I've known of horrendous family situations in the past where neglected children had to deal with alcoholic parents.I've seen it all Maggie and heartbreaking as it was,those children had no thoughts of crime in any way,just to do well at school and get a job as far away from that household as they could.

This is why my reasoning is so diverse and controversial.

I know many children overcome all kinds of abuse and cruelty and grow up to be good parents and human beings but some don't and that is the question. 

Do we allow them to be pilloried and abused some more or do we try to at least understand the causes of such wickedness?  By understanding we may be able to stop or reduce the incidence of it. 

Of course while our Child Protection and Safeguarding Children's services are stripped to the bone and understaffed there's little hope for these lost children.

[Jane]

I don't think we know enough about the circumstances of the case, but whatever they are they are going to be interned for many years, I wonder whether the professionals will be up to the job and their rehabilitation has been made harder to say the least by divulging their identities to the public.

Steve, I imagine that both these children have been numbed by their life experiences. They KNOW what they've done and what's been done to them. They can't FEEL what they've done, OR, for that matter, what's been done to them. I think it will take decades to strip away the numbness. IF it can be successfully stripped away, what will be left is likely to be raw and excruciating pain and guilt which is also going to need dealing with. For a moment, their only friends -the only ones who understood- were each other. Separating them will bring it's own problems. I can't see a happy future for either of them.

[Jane]

I know many children overcome all kinds of abuse and cruelty and grow up to be good parents and human beings but some don't and that is the question. 

Do we allow them to be pilloried and abused some more or do we try to at least understand the causes of such wickedness?  By understanding we may be able to stop or reduce the incidence of it. 

Of course while our Child Protection and Safeguarding Children's services are stripped to the bone and understaffed there's little hope for these lost children.

We certainly can't help THEM if we take the kind of stance advocated by Lookout. We HAVE to try to understand what turned innocent children into murdering teenagers. Reading about their treatment, I'd have thought it might have been easy enough to understand.

[maggie]

I wouldn't like to judge at this stage but they are for sure symptomatic of the failure of modern society which puts the individual above all else, though fortunately an extremely rare case.

I do not accept that child murderers are necessarily the product of the modern age but rather a product of human behavour.   

I am sure it is something that has always happened, although relatively rarely as far as we know. 

[Jane]

That's interesting Lookout. They were both only 14 years old at the time so I'm wondering whether socio-economic factors played a part? They would be just starting their GCSE courses. We don't know enough of the background yet apart from the girl claiming her mother favoritized her sister over her.

I also have doubts about releasing their names to the public at so young an age.

We don't actually know if their mother did favour the younger sister.  It's only about what the older child felt.

[lookout]

I know many children overcome all kinds of abuse and cruelty and grow up to be good parents and human beings but some don't and that is the question. 

Do we allow them to be pilloried and abused some more or do we try to at least understand the causes of such wickedness?  By understanding we may be able to stop or reduce the incidence of it. 

Of course while our Child Protection and Safeguarding Children's services are stripped to the bone and understaffed there's little hope for these lost children.

With all the horrendous crimes that are about now,I just fear for the future and the futures of my and others, great/grandchildren.

You would have thought that during my time of growing up with so little money that crime would have been at its highest ? But no,there's more money now than there's ever been and crime is higher than it's ever been ? Why is that and what's the answer ? Where is all this money going ?

[lookout]

What are the priorities of people and families today ?