Author Topic: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?  (Read 99616 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2017, 06:02:PM »
I believe an innocent guy was killed horribly because vigilantes decreed him guilty of paedophilia. When hounds are hungry for blood, they don't care whose it is. It's what happens when mobs rule.




So ? There are times when police shoot first and ask later. It happens when there is so much criminality that everyone,even the police become over-zealous. Even tasers have killed the REAL criminal,is that also a worry to you ?

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2017, 06:10:PM »



So ? There are times when police shoot first and ask later. It happens when there is so much criminality that everyone,even the police become over-zealous. Even tasers have killed the REAL criminal,is that also a worry to you ?

So you support vigilantes killing innocent people?

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2017, 06:39:PM »
So you support vigilantes killing innocent people?




You said it------I didn't !!

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2017, 06:50:PM »



You said it------I didn't !!

It was a question. Note the question mark.

Offline Stephanie

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2017, 02:27:PM »
Am quite impressed with this from Michael Gove..


Former Justice Secretary Michael Gove tells packed Longford audience prison time should be used “to repair lives not further blight them”

 “The problem – in a nutshell,” said Michael Gove, “is that we have a system operating at practically full capacity with nowhere near enough flexibility to devote the time care and attention needed to secure successful rehabilitation.” He spoke passionately about the need for the leadership team at NOMS, “to ensure prisoners are properly assessed on entry to the prison estate, moved on through the system as their sentence is served and also, if necessary, moved as debts and threats, changing circumstances and new challenges emerge. In an estate with scarcely any headroom or slack in the system that has led to centralised control in order simply to ensure that every prisoner is – at the very least – housed in accordance with their security level.”

There should be clear demarcation in the prison estate “Ideally, we should have prisons which cater for remand prisoners, some high security establishments for those who pose the very greatest threat, facilities within the high security estate for extremists and those intent on proselytisation and terrorist recruitment, prisons which specialise in dealing with sex offenders and – above all – community prisons with strong external links to education and employment providers who can prepare prisoners for effective re-entry into society,” he said.

But in order for that to happen, “to make our prisons effective at rehabilitation,” he said, “will require some clear thinking and resolute action on questions as varied as the treatment of young offenders, the place of women prisoners, the implementation of new technology and sentencing reform.”

So who does he believe are the people who make up our prison population? “The first thing to say is that they are all individuals,” he said. “There are peers and priests who’ve been prisoners, consummate charmers and men even their mothers would be hard-pushed to love, dedicated career criminals and those who’ve made just one horrendous mistake. But even though you find all sorts and conditions of men (and women) in prison there are some groups which have historically been over-represented, given their numbers overall in our society.”

More sensitivity required
“We should certainly be much more sensitive to the way in which so many of those who come into contact with our criminal justice system are individuals who have been abused or neglected as children,” he said. “They will have witnessed domestic violence when growing up, have been failed by the education system and who have been in foster or other residential care. They will often have been brought up by adults with addictions or other mental health problems. They will, in all too many cases, suffer from substance abuse and mental illness themselves. They will have been harmed not just physically and psychologically, they will also have endured spiritual and moral deprivation.”

Make an effort to understand
“Many of those in our jails never had someone who loved them enough when they were young to tell them the difference between right and wrong,” he said. “They will have grown up in homes where affection was absent or fleeting, authority arbitrary or brutal. They will never have developed the habits of consideration towards others, deferred gratification and empathy which are the cement of civilisation. Of course, the overwhelming majority of those who’ve faced such challenging childhoods make successes of their lives. But their achievements deserve all the more recognition because of the difficulties they’ve overcome. And those of us who’ve been fortunate enough to enjoy love, stability and carefully policed boundaries when we’ve been growing up should make an extra effort to understand the lives of others who’ve lived with coldness, violence and chaos.”

If we try to understand, he argued, “we might appreciate why children who’ve learned that showing weakness only invites abuse cover up the fact they can’t read in class with shows of bravado and disruptive behaviour. These same boys, finding learning difficult and school alienating, increasingly play truant or invite expulsion. They then find a deceptive warmth in the intimacy of gang culture, a fragile respect from out-doing their peers in violence or daring and an adrenalin-charged thrill from breaking the law. Being thought of as a player by others living the life provides a spurious sense of achievement for those who’ve never been valued in any other way. So many of those in our prisons are damaged individuals, victims themselves, and we should be careful about the moral judgements we make about them.”

Social capital
There still has to be punishment when the law is broken, he said, “The civic order depends on our policing the boundaries between right and wrong with determination. But it’s critical to appreciate that many of those who are in our prisons grew up without the social capital or moral reinforcement the rest of us have been fortunate enough to enjoy. Their ability to resist temptation and to avoid acting impulsively will have been impaired by their upbringing and eroded by their circumstances. That does not mean when they offend that we should suspend the operation of the law on which the social order depends. But the deprivation of liberty inherent in being sent to prison is punishment enough.”

Every human soul precious
Importantly he reminded the audience, “Offenders should not face further degradation or indignity when in custody. Quite the opposite. We should use that time to repair lives not further blight them. We need to ensure that prisons build up the resources of character and resilience which will mean prisoners are less likely to offend in future. I believe, with Frank Longford, that such a mission is vital because every single human soul is precious and all of us can achieve something worthwhile if the circumstances are right.”

“But even if you’re a hard-bitten cynic who regards such language as hopelessly naive nonsense and you believe the purpose of the justice system is not to help bad people but protect good people then you should want to ensure our prisons are more effective at rehabilitation. Because at the moment half of those sent to prison offend again after their release. We spend hundreds of thousands keeping these individuals detained under state control. We govern who they see and what they do, what they learn and how they work, who leads and who follows, every minute of their life for months or perhaps years at a time. And after all that they go on to offend again, and again. Now that really is criminal.”

http://www.insidetime.org/whats-really-criminal-about-our-justice-system/
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Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2017, 03:05:PM »
The latest horror story to come from Truss is that millions are going to be spent building more prisons !
Why ??
How about those,who we fund through our taxes,namely the police, start upholding the law as it should be done by preventing crime before it takes place,thus avoiding prison sentences to start with ?
Prevention is better than cure every time. Stop wasting money and resources on all things petty and instead start a programme and re-education on crime prevention.
Police must now know those who are hardened criminals or those who flout the law,enough to track them to put a stop to their criminality from spreading ?

Once upon a time we had the best force in the world,along with education and the NHS and now we intend building more prisons----------for God's sake what does that now tell the world about this small country ?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2017, 12:43:AM »
From former Justice Secretary Michael Gove:

Many of those in our jails never had someone who loved them enough when they were young to tell them the difference between right and wrong,” he said. “They will have grown up in homes where affection was absent or fleeting, authority arbitrary or brutal. They will never have developed the habits of consideration towards others, deferred gratification and empathy which are the cement of civilisation. Of course, the overwhelming majority of those who’ve faced such challenging childhoods make successes of their lives. But their achievements deserve all the more recognition because of the difficulties they’ve overcome. And those of us who’ve been fortunate enough to enjoy love, stability and carefully policed boundaries when we’ve been growing up should make an extra effort to understand the lives of others who’ve lived with coldness, violence and chaos.”

I wonder whether this is applicable in the following case:  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-uks-youngest-double-9068027

Offline maggie

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2017, 08:16:AM »
From former Justice Secretary Michael Gove:

Many of those in our jails never had someone who loved them enough when they were young to tell them the difference between right and wrong,” he said. “They will have grown up in homes where affection was absent or fleeting, authority arbitrary or brutal. They will never have developed the habits of consideration towards others, deferred gratification and empathy which are the cement of civilisation. Of course, the overwhelming majority of those who’ve faced such challenging childhoods make successes of their lives. But their achievements deserve all the more recognition because of the difficulties they’ve overcome. And those of us who’ve been fortunate enough to enjoy love, stability and carefully policed boundaries when we’ve been growing up should make an extra effort to understand the lives of others who’ve lived with coldness, violence and chaos.”

I wonder whether this is applicable in the following case:  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-uks-youngest-double-9068027
Goodness! I didn't think I would ever agree with Michael Gove!
However much such crimes can horrify and disturb us I do think we should always at least be aware of the abuse such children may have suffered. 
If babies and children are never shown love and care, if their sense of self and compassion is never nurtured and all they see is anger and cruelty then imo surely their abusers are at least as guilty of their behaviour as they are themselves. Unfortunately these adults are often also the product of severe damage and abuse themselves....
I don't know the reason why some children who are horrendously abused don't develop sociopathic behaviour and others do. I'm sure psychiatrists and psychologists have studied this in detail but I would guess genetics have some bearing.  Nature and nurture are probably equally important.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:27:AM by maggie »

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2017, 09:16:AM »
From former Justice Secretary Michael Gove:

Many of those in our jails never had someone who loved them enough when they were young to tell them the difference between right and wrong,” he said. “They will have grown up in homes where affection was absent or fleeting, authority arbitrary or brutal. They will never have developed the habits of consideration towards others, deferred gratification and empathy which are the cement of civilisation. Of course, the overwhelming majority of those who’ve faced such challenging childhoods make successes of their lives. But their achievements deserve all the more recognition because of the difficulties they’ve overcome. And those of us who’ve been fortunate enough to enjoy love, stability and carefully policed boundaries when we’ve been growing up should make an extra effort to understand the lives of others who’ve lived with coldness, violence and chaos.”

I wonder whether this is applicable in the following case:  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-uks-youngest-double-9068027






The above is no excuse to murder. I can't/don't agree with Gove at all.
This was a downright evil killing with no thought for anyone but themselves, fraught with jealousy on the side of the killer,and a means to end what was a totally selfish and thoughtless act.

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2017, 11:14:AM »
From former Justice Secretary Michael Gove:

Many of those in our jails never had someone who loved them enough when they were young to tell them the difference between right and wrong,” he said. “They will have grown up in homes where affection was absent or fleeting, authority arbitrary or brutal. They will never have developed the habits of consideration towards others, deferred gratification and empathy which are the cement of civilisation. Of course, the overwhelming majority of those who’ve faced such challenging childhoods make successes of their lives. But their achievements deserve all the more recognition because of the difficulties they’ve overcome. And those of us who’ve been fortunate enough to enjoy love, stability and carefully policed boundaries when we’ve been growing up should make an extra effort to understand the lives of others who’ve lived with coldness, violence and chaos.”

I wonder whether this is applicable in the following case:  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-uks-youngest-double-9068027

Steve, I can't tell you how many times people have told me that the ubiquitous "they" SHOULD have done.....................!!!! "They" frequently don't know how. "They" have never seen it demonstrated, ergo, "they" will repeat the habits/patterns they HAVE seen demonstrated. I imagine those two murdering children both felt abandoned. Their diverse reasons are irrelevant. Abandonment is abandonment. I really don't believe it's possible for any of us to set aside those things which were implanted into us before we reached an age where we could reason. The most we can do -and this may require years of therapy- is to examine them, see them for what they are, and put them in a place where we can handle them without them damaging us further.

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2017, 11:20:AM »
Goodness! I didn't think I would ever agree with Michael Gove!
However much such crimes can horrify and disturb us I do think we should always at least be aware of the abuse such children may have suffered. 
If babies and children are never shown love and care, if their sense of self and compassion is never nurtured and all they see is anger and cruelty then imo surely their abusers are at least as guilty of their behaviour as they are themselves. Unfortunately these adults are often also the product of severe damage and abuse themselves....
I don't know the reason why some children who are horrendously abused don't develop sociopathic behaviour and others do. I'm sure psychiatrists and psychologists have studied this in detail but I would guess genetics have some bearing.  Nature and nurture are probably equally important.

Terrific post, Maggie. 100% accurate and factual. Tragically, I'm not certain that an adult, SO damaged in childhood, can ever make a full recovery because in moments of severe stress, those childhood feelings will return, unbidden.

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2017, 11:25:AM »





The above is no excuse to murder. I can't/don't agree with Gove at all.
This was a downright evil killing with no thought for anyone but themselves, fraught with jealousy on the side of the killer,and a means to end what was a totally selfish and thoughtless act.

I don't think anyone is offering excuses, Lookout. What's being offered is reason and explanation for it. Jealousy is a perfectly natural human response. It's something we all feel when our own needs aren't being met. It's at the heart of all sibling rivalry. As for the evil act done "with no thought for anyone but themselves" I imagine the both children felt as if no one had ever given thought to them.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 11:30:AM by Jane J »

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2017, 12:13:PM »
I don't think anyone is offering excuses, Lookout. What's being offered is reason and explanation for it. Jealousy is a perfectly natural human response. It's something we all feel when our own needs aren't being met. It's at the heart of all sibling rivalry. As for the evil act done "with no thought for anyone but themselves" I imagine the both children felt as if no one had ever given thought to them.





You sound as if you agree that the murder was justified ? NO murder ever is !

Offline maggie

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2017, 12:31:PM »





The above is no excuse to murder. I can't/don't agree with Gove at all.
This was a downright evil killing with no thought for anyone but themselves, fraught with jealousy on the side of the killer,and a means to end what was a totally selfish and thoughtless act.
I agree with your reaction to the crime  Lookout but there is always cause and effect imo.  If these children became so evil there has to be a reason, although I am not trying to excuse the crime.  They were either born that way or they were taught to behave that way.  Children learn by example imo. :)

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2017, 12:51:PM »




You sound as if you agree that the murder was justified ? NO murder ever is !

Perhaps you should have read what I ACTUALLY said, rather than what you think I said.