Was there a siege situation at WHF ?

[lookout]

Was this the true reason for the attendance of the armed officers and not the fact that it had been " a trick of the light ?"

[Stephanie]

Was this the true reason for the attendance of the armed officers and not the fact that it had been " a trick of the light ?"

Here's the thing Lookout. People like Jeremy Bamber are extremely convincing. All the police involved in the beginning were clearly taken in by him. Why would they not have been? They didn't know Jeremy Bamber per se. They were unaware of the family dynamics. It was only much later that they realised they had made a mistake and had been conned.

Add into the mix it was dark, cold, late and they may very well have been tired and scared. The mind can play tricks on people as well as the light.

They took precautions by calling in armed officers. They weren't to know they weren't needed. Jeremy Bamber has since played on this aspect of his case, along with numerous other aspects, to give him plausible deniability.

There is no doubt that numerous errors were made by Essex police in their original investigation but police errors are not unheard of in cases such as this. Look at the case of SH, the police/CPS prosecuted him for the wrong motive. They dismissed their original belief that the murder had a sexual motive and decided to follow the 'burglary gone wrong' scenerio.

The media have lead us to believe that it was a relative who found the silencer and it is for this reason alone interest was then placed on Jeremy. The truth is we do not know for certain what other information had come to light and the actual reasons why the police changed their minds from murder/suicide. There may have been information about Jeremy Bamber that could not be used in a Court of law, like say for example; his sexual promiscuity.

I do not for one minute believe Sheila Bamber was alive at the time the police arrived at WHF. Jeremy Bamber would have made sure all of his victims were deceased before alerting the police. He couldn't afford otherwise...

[Roch]

I was intending to post about this soon, on another recent thread, where a discussion had already been started.  In short, the HQIR were expecting a siege prior to the situation report expected from the scene. This means that HQIR were expecting a siege prior to having any knowledge of Jeremy Bamber's alleged conversation with PS Bews at the scene. This is possibly the reason why CA07 parked up at an approximate 200 yards perimeter from the farmhouse.

[lookout]

Here's the thing Lookout. People like Jeremy Bamber are extremely convincing. All the police involved in the beginning were clearly taken in by him. Why would they not have been? They didn't know Jeremy Bamber per se. They were unaware of the family dynamics. It was only much later that they realised they had made a mistake and had been conned.

Add into the mix it was dark, cold, late and they may very well have been tired and scared. The mind can play tricks on people as well as the light.

They took precautions by calling in armed officers. They weren't to know they weren't needed. Jeremy Bamber has since played on this aspect of his case, along with numerous other aspects, to give him plausible deniability.

There is no doubt that numerous errors were made by Essex police in their original investigation but police errors are not unheard of in cases such as this. Look at the case of SH, the police/CPS prosecuted him for the wrong motive. They dismissed their original belief that the murder had a sexual motive and decided to follow the 'burglary gone wrong' scenerio.

The media have lead us to believe that it was a relative who found the silencer and it is for this reason alone interest was then placed on Jeremy. The truth is we do not know for certain what other information had come to light and the actual reasons why the police changed their minds from murder/suicide. There may have been information about Jeremy Bamber that could not be used in a Court of law, like say for example; his sexual promiscuity.

I do not for one minute believe Sheila Bamber was alive at the time the police arrived at WHF. Jeremy Bamber would have made sure all of his victims were deceased before alerting the police. He couldn't afford otherwise...

It wasn't a case of having been taken in by JB at all. If the telephone at WHF had been left open,as it was,who are we to argue that sounds/voices could be heard  by the operator ? Would you trust EP to be truthful about this. ?  Witness statements of armed officers were a bit thin on the ground as were the non-statements of the decision made by Targrass and Scollan to send armed officers in in the first place.
If there'd been sounds/voices involving two people,then it was a siege and nothing whatsoever to do with JB.
All we have to rely on were those who were deployed by EP who,when EP are not forthcoming with documents after two court orders, aren't going to be very reliable with their evidence are they ?

Armed officers are a last resort,so you can't tell me that something didn't kick off for them to have been deployed in the first place.
Even EP mentioned a siege and for it to be a siege there had to be at least two people who were alive inside.
It's totally lousy if EP knew about this, as after JB's call it wasn't treated as a siege situation until half an hour later when it was Scollan who'd ordered the firearms team. Why after treating the situation as a " domestic " does it suddenly turn into a siege ?
JB was outside all of this time,himself knowing that there was life inside the farmhouse,so how could he have been busy shooting everyone ?   

[Stephanie]

I was intending to post about this soon, on another recent thread, where a discussion had already been started.  In short, the HQIR were expecting a siege prior to the situation report expected from the scene. This means, that HQIR were expecting a siege prior to any knowledge of Jeremy Bamber's alleged conversation with PS Bews at the scene. This is possibly the reason why CA07 parked up at an approximate 200 yards perimeter from the farmhouse.

Was this standard procedure when the word 'gun' was used?

[Roch]

Was this standard procedure when the word 'gun' was used?

Steph. I am led to believe it was not standard practice at that time, in the mid '80's. It was an exceptional event to prepare for police to be issued with firearms. The decision was not taken lightly or without sufficient reports as a pre-requisite.

[Adam]

Very well done Lookout for creating a thread.

What a pity you couldn't assist David with his explanation on how Sheila committed the massacre. At present he's accepted Neville didn't phone the police and has not challenged my 15 obstacles. Perhaps because he didn't get any support.

Anyway there is already a thread on why the police didn't go in straight away.

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7302.msg346663.html#msg346663

[Stephanie]

Steph. I am led to believe it was not standard practice at that time, in the mid '80's. It was an exceptional event to prepare for police to be issued with firearms. The decision was not taken lightly or without sufficient reports as a pre-requisite.

In which case it could still have been an exceptional event that wasn't required. By the time they were deployed it's still entirely possible they had been conned and indeed conned themselves.

[lookout]

In which case it could still have been an exceptional event that wasn't required. By the time they were deployed it's still entirely possible they had been conned and indeed conned themselves.

Conned ? A police force and an armed force,conned ? I hardly think so.

[Stephanie]

Conned ? A police force and an armed force,conned ? I hardly think so.

Why not? An entire nation can be conned by one politician. Why is it so hard to believe a police force can't be fooled either? How many officers were involved exactly as it wouldn't have been the whole force as you have stated.

Here's the thing though Lookout - to go after Jeremy Bamber and prosecute him for the murders; they may not have admitted publicly to have being conned but that's exactly what happened. They were all wrong. Collectively they made mistakes..

Have you seen "I Am fish head?" I highly recommend it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0k7wBzXPY

It's quite a lengthy documentary but sobering none the less.

A quote from the doc "Psychopaths are easy to like!"

[lookout]

So all those who are working in the background for Trudi and her team are all being conned ?

[Roch]

In which case it could still have been an exceptional event that wasn't required. By the time they were deployed it's still entirely possible they had been conned and indeed conned themselves.

Police and civilian personnel are trained not to make assumptions, when receiving information. The police officers who overheard PC West receive a telephone call some time after 3.20am (and then subsequently discussed that call with him), ambled to the scene, taking 50 minutes to arrive. This should have been a 20 minutes journey.  Therefore, there was no urgency on the part of CA5 containing PC Cracknell and PC Norcup to get to the farmhouse.  The other car, CA7 is the one that contained PS Bews, PC Saxby and PC Myall.  That is the car which travelled the shorter journey  - but which upon arrival, set up at a perimeter of approximately 200 yards. Bews has expressed that he didn't know what to expect and that for all he knew it could be a hoax. When PC West had telephoned civilian Malcolm Bonnet at HQIR, Bonnet did not assist West to contact the CA7 officers at Whitham - he merely informed West that he knew that CA7 was at Whitham, leaving it to West to attempt to make contact. HQIR would have been receiving messages for the entire county of Essex. 

Once Bews is at the scene, he is required to provide a situation report. Although he does so, after having approached the farmhouse (then literally running back to CA7 for no apparent reason), a decision has already been made behind the scenes, to stand down several Force Support Unit vehicles on operations in Colchester and instruct them to drive over 24 miles to Chelmsford in preparation to draw arms. Why are the police wrongly stating that an armed response was deployed to the scene, due to PS Bews request and as a result of his situation report (which in any case, was simply that some lights were on in the farmhouse, the dogs were barking and Sheila Caffell apparently has 'mental health issues'?).

[Roch]

Furthermore...

If Bews did not know what to expect and did not know whether there was a hoax - how does he ascertain the seriousness of the situation, without undertaking any attempt to make contact with whoever was in the farmhouse? He had two fellow officers to assist him in doing this.  Allegedly, what he does instead is to approach the farmhouse cautiously on foot, with just one of the officers and Jeremy Bamber; and carry out a visual of the property from a distance.  He and Myall then experience some initial apprehension whether a backlit figure was seen.  However, after holding their nerve and experimenting by moving themselves physically back & forth, they become satisfied that the 'figure' was no more than a visual illusion, caused by some reflection upon the window.  Then inextricably, everyone runs back to CA7?

[guest7363]

Furthermore...

If Bews did not know what to expect and did not know whether there was a hoax - how does he ascertain the seriousness of the situation, without undertaking any attempt to make contact with whoever was in the farmhouse? He had two fellow officers to assist him in doing this.  Allegedly, what he does instead is to approach the farmhouse cautiously on foot, with just one of the officers and Jeremy Bamber; and carry out a visual of the property from a distance.  He and Myall then experience some initial apprehension whether a backlit figure was seen.  However, after holding their nerve and experimenting by moving themselves physically back & forth, they become satisfied that the 'figure' was no more than a visual illusion, caused by some reflection upon the window.  Then inextricably, everyone runs back to CA7?

And you don't say anything about brave heart Bamber, who stood back from his own fathers plight.  Did he try and make contact, was he in such a rush to sort things, you say you have been swayed back to innocent, personally I don't see what could have changed your mind on here, I think you have seen the numbers drop in favour of Bamber and you are here again to swell the ranks.