The window catch issue

[maggie]

I've never seen it written that Jeremy did more than drive Sheila home from the weekend party because she was tired. It seems to me, that even if he hadn't spent the evening in conversation with her, he'd have gained some indication of her mental state during the drive. Her friends all talk about her fragility during her last fortnight yet Jeremy makes no mention of any impression he may have absorbed during that journey. Interestingly, neither has Julie.

Hi Jane,

I am not saying that I believe they colluded but rather that it is a possibility because we only know what has been written and spoken of, we have no knowledge about whether JB and Sheila were in touch by phone or any other way or what her true state of mind was etc.   

Her friends may or may not have known her true and complete state of mind and how psychotic she may or may not have been.

In the same vein, we have no idea about Julie Mugford and where her head was at this time other than what she has chosen to tell us.  There has always been a deafening silence from Jeremy on the subject of JM.

In truth we know very little about the individuals in this case apart from hearsay from friends and their own evidence.  The victims sadly are unable to give their accounts.

So many red herrings and we will never know the details of this case but I think as far as t is possible at this time we know the truth.

[Adam]

There is no evidence that JB exited through the kitchen window.

Even if it was possible to exit and secure the window when outside it is only proof that he MAY have exited that way. 

It proves he or someone else had the ability to enter and exit the farmhouse via that window or by some other means such as the upstairs window.     

However all the court required was proof the house could have been entered, secured and exited somehow. 

The fact the finger was pointed at JB was due to the phone call from Nevill which made it clear either JB or Sheila or both were responsible for the killings.

All the evidence points to Bamber climbing out of the kitchen window -

He said he knew how to enter/exit the kitchen window - Witness testimony.

The housekeeper said crime scene photos showed fixed items around the kitchen window had been moved - Evidence.

One of the kitchen window locks could be banged shut from outside - Evidence.

The horizontal lock could not be banged onto it's pegs from outside. This lock was found off it's pegs which would not be the case if June/Neville had shut this window - Evidence.

Julie testified that Bamber had told her he had found a way out of WHF and secure the same window from outside - Witness testimony.


I appreciate you and Harters want things such as CCTV, a witness or a photo/video of a crime being committed. Which Harters describes as 'Direct Evidence'. If not available, then it is optimistically claimed there is 'no evidence'.

It is 100% correct that Bamber exited WHF through a window. The only published evidence, testimony and prosecution stance is that Bamber exited out of the kitchen window.

Agree there is no 'Direct Evidence' as this term has been described in this thread. And there never will be.

[guest7363]

He certainly appears to be shifting the focus. It may well be that having sifted through those papers with a fine tooth comb he's found that every "T" has been crossed and every "I" dotted.

I think it's all about keeping the conspiracy theory alive Jane, everyone likes a conspiracy and try to connect dots that aren't connected, this is what brought most of us to this site in the first place, in Bamber's case his is built around conspiracy, the police, the family, the forensic team, the courts, the CCRC, in fact anyone who thinks him guilty.  With Legal aid being restricted it will help him gather funding?

[Jane]

Hi Jane,

I am not saying that I believe they colluded but rather that it is a possibility because we only know what has been written and spoken of, we have no knowledge about whether JB and Sheila were in touch by phone or any other way or what her true state of mind was etc.   

Her friends may or may not have known her true and complete state of mind and how psychotic she may or may not have been.

In the same vein, we have no idea about Julie Mugford and where her head was at this time other than what she has chosen to tell us.  There has always been a deafening silence from Jeremy on the subject of JM.

In truth we know very little about the individuals in this case apart from hearsay from friends and their own evidence.  The victims sadly are unable to give their accounts.

So many red herrings and we will never know the details of this case but I think as far as t is possible at this time we know the truth.

You could be absolutely correct, Maggie. Often, during periods when they're not at war with each other, siblings unite in war against their parents. My instincts say, that in this case, it's unlikely. However, I do feel that whatever was said -or NOT- during that post party journey, COULD be very revealing. I'm amazed that so little has been said of it. There could indeed, have been some kind of collusion, OR Jeremy's evaluation of the situation could have lead him towards a final decision.

[maggie]

All the evidence points to Bamber climbing out of the kitchen window -

He said he knew how enter/exit the kitchen window - Witness testimony.

The housekeeper said crime scene photos showed fixed items around the kitchen window had been moved - Evidence.

One of the kitchen window locks could be banged shut from outside - Evidence.

The horizontal lock could not be banged onto it's pegs from outside. This lock was found off it's pegs which would not be the case if June/Neville had shut this window - Evidence.

Julie testified that Bamber had told her he had found a way out of WHF and secure the same window from outside - Witness testimony.


I appreciate you and Harters want things such as CCTV, a witness or a photo/video of a crime being committed. Which Harters describes as 'Direct Evidence'. That did not happen with this crime.

It is 100% correct that Bamber exited WHF through a window. The only published evidence, testimony and prosecution stance is that Bamber exited out of the kitchen window.

Hi Adam
I accept everything you say about the windows except when you say there is proof JB exited through a window and secured it.  He may very well have done, I have said that I find it more probable that he would have used the main bedroom window, it's just sitting there open so why not use it!!!

However, I have no proof he used it anymore than he used any other window unless, as Harters said, you have a photo of him leaving through that window.

Surely the point is that it was accepted by the court that he COULD have left via a window after killing his family, the main point of that argument being that if Sheila didn't kill the family and herself it had to be JB who did and he may have done it by entering and exiting via the kitchen window, but there is no proof he didn't enter via a downstairs window and exit through the main bedroom window using a stepladder after securing all other windows and locking and bolting the backdoor.  Or he may have used a different route to enter and exit, we really don't know for sure, we just know that he could.  It's a red herring to keep trying to prove how any of the windows may have been opened or locked and diverts from the simple argument that he could enter and exit.  All the piano wire in the world doesn't prove one way or another whether JB didn't simply climb out of the upstairs window. 

Isn't it a waste of energy to try to prove a point which cannot be proven to people who broadly agree with your opinions?

I rest my case.

[Jane]

I think it's all about keeping the conspiracy theory alive Jane, everyone likes a conspiracy and try to connect dots that aren't connected, this is what brought most of us to this site in the first place, in Bamber's case his is built around conspiracy, the police, the family, the forensic team, the courts, the CCRC, in fact anyone who thinks him guilty.  With Legal aid being restricted it will help him gather funding?

I can go with that one, Justice. Instill enough doubt in peoples' minds and he may have the glimmer of a chance.

[maggie]

I can go with that one, Justice. Instill enough doubt in peoples' minds and he may have the glimmer of a chance.

It's true, it is a puzzle Jane and when you first approach the case it appears to have many dead ends and questions and to be a great 'who dunnit' but if you take away the myth, legends and hearsay it's quite simple really.  There are unanswered questions but I'm not convinced an answer to most of them would make much difference to the end result. 
I have an open mind and am always interested in new info or anyone's fresh opinions but somewhere along the line I lost belief in the JB story, so much of it is unconvincing and not thought through.

[guest7363]

Hi Adam
I accept everything you say about the windows except when you say there is proof JB exited through a window and secured it.  He may very well have done, I have said that I find it more probable that he would have used the main bedroom window, it's just sitting there open so why not use it!!!

However, I have no proof he used it anymore than he used any other window unless, as Harters said, you have a photo of him leaving through that window.

Surely the point is that it was accepted by the court that he COULD have left via a window after killing his family, the main point of that argument being that if Sheila didn't kill the family and herself it had to be JB who did and he may have done it by entering and exiting via the kitchen window, but there is no proof he didn't enter via a downstairs window and exit through the main bedroom window using a stepladder after securing all other windows and locking and bolting the backdoor.  Or he may have used a different route t enter and exit, we really don't know for sure, we just know that he could.

Isn't it a waste of energy to try to prove a point which cannot be proven to people who broadly agree with your opinions?

I rest my case.

Good post Maggie, I think the kitchen window was the favoured window that's all, I agree the bedroom window and sash window would have been easy to exit, ladder no trouble to exit a window from, like Hartley said, he wouldn't have to close a top window secure?  It wasn't as though he lived on a housing estate with prying close neighbours.

[guest7363]

It's true, it is a puzzle Jane and when you first approach the case it appears to have many dead ends and questions and to be a great 'who dunnit' but if you take away the myth, legends and hearsay it's quite simple really.  There are unanswered questions but I'm not convinced an answer to most of them would make much difference to the end result. 
I have an open mind and am always interested in new info or anyone's fresh opinions but somewhere along the line I lost belief in the JB story, so much of it is unconvincing and not thought through.

Are you on form or what today Maggie.

[guest2181]

Are you on form or what today Maggie.

I was about to say the same, some excellent posts from Maggie. 

[Adam]

If Bamber had excited through an upstairs window, the horizontal lock on the kitchen window, would be on it's pegs. Either put there by June, Neville or Bamber. It wasn't.

[Adam]

If the crime scene showed that the upstairs open window was an exit option for Bamber, it is very surprising the police or prosecution have never said this.

They could still go ahead with their number one theory that he exited through the kitchen window. But there is no harm in saying Bamber had more than one exit option.

[guest7363]

If the crime scene showed that the upstairs open window was an exit option for Bamber, it is very surprising the police or prosecution have never said this.

They could still go ahead with their number one theory that he exited through the kitchen window. But there is no harm in saying Bamber had more than one exit option.

I don't think they ruled any window out?  The Kitchen window was the favoured window

[guest7363]

Hi Maggie. Everyone has got to explore their own thoughts and doubts.  Currently I'm wondering whether Jeremy had any foreknowledge of Sheila's intentions - whether he could have aided / facilitated her. However, this doesn't really fit with Jeremy's description of Sheila during the conversation at the table the evening before.  If anything - he underplays the tension in that situation.

I still don't understand how exits could be made fully secure from the outside though.  Other than some bizarre theories - It seems that posters are totally ignoring this fact when replying to this thread.

And then there is the quote attributed to PI Miller, in the video - interesting, especially given that he was a key prosecution witness.

With regards to some posters' ever faithful adherence to the official prosecution evidence - the video successfully exposes the complete lack of professionalism in DC Barlow's actions.

Hi Roch, in one statement he does underplay any tension that evening, but if you check his next statement for some unknown reason he builds on Sheila being vacant?  What amazes me is he cannot remember what he spoke to Sheila about in the rape field?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5816.0;attach=37837

Do you not agree that if he knows of a way or method to open catches from the outside, which in theory should be the hardest to do, he could also have a method or means of closing the catch or handle?  It was stated by I think Taff who didn't arrive till after 9.15 that the ground floor windows were secure and on their latches, I don't think they were properly checked it would have been a more quick visual check I would have thought and would have expected because of the murder suicide theory, many times I have locked schools up and from the inside the window looks shut only to find on my outside perimeter check it's not fully closed.

[maggie]

If Bamber had excited through an upstairs window, the horizontal lock on the kitchen window, would be on it's pegs. Either put there by June, Neville or Bamber. It wasn't.

How on earth do you know that Adam?