The window catch issue

[guest2181]

Pity the present photograph of the kitchen window hadn't been shown at the trial-------it didn't see daylight until 2011  ! Just something else which had been swept aside along with MOUNTAINS of other files/docs. and photos,UNSEEN.

Do you still think things are being withheld?

[Adam]

It remains the case, that there is no direct evidence pin pointing how JB exited the house.

What would be 'direct evidence' ?

I can only think of a witness or photos of him doing this on the night.

Blood by the window would not help. As everyone connected lived at or visited WHF.

[guest2181]

What would be 'direct evidence' ?

I can only think of a witness or photos of him doing this on the night.

Blood by the window would not help. As everyone connected lived at or visited WHF.

Therefore, you cannot say, and do not know how JB exited the house. You can only say that it was possible for him to do so.

Which, incidentally, is what was determined in court and reinforced at appeal.

[guest2181]

Do you still think things are being withheld?

The only reason I ask is that the following is written in CAL's book:

The campaign website maintains that Essex Police are still withholding 175 photographs along with 340,000 pages of documents, many of them under Public Interest Immunity. However, in a letter dated 13 October 2013, Jeremy stated that he had now in fact seen ‘320,000 pages of the 340,000 pages that attracted PII’. In a second letter on 25 December 2013 he wrote that the entire 340,000 pages had been made available and could be used ‘in any way I so choose, but for the moment it is not going to assist me in having my appeal heard any sooner and actually it’ll muck up any future prosecution of those who deserve to be in jail’. The police position on his previous claims of withheld material is encapsulated in the declaration of former senior investigating officer Mike Ainsley: ‘Bamber was tried on an abundance of evidence and properly convicted. There was no miscarriage of justice. There were no grave errors in my investigation. No witness for the prosecution gave false or misleading evidence. There were no ‘paper’ errors. The defence lawyers had full and unencumbered access to ALL of the police statements, documents and exhibits at any time.’

[maggie]

Hi Maggie. Everyone has got to explore their own thoughts and doubts.  Currently I'm wondering whether Jeremy had any foreknowledge of Sheila's intentions - whether he could have aided / facilitated her. However, this doesn't really fit with Jeremy's description of Sheila during the conversation at the table the evening before.  If anything - he underplays the tension in that situation.

I still don't understand how exits could be made fully secure from the outside though.  Other than some bizarre theories - It seems that posters are totally ignoring this fact when replying to this thread.

And then there is the quote attributed to PI Miller, in the video - interesting, especially given that he was a key prosecution witness.

With regards to some posters' ever faithful adherence to the official prosecution evidence - the video successfully exposes the complete lack of professionalism in DC Barlow's actions.

Hi Roch, I agree it is a possibility that JB and Sheila may have colluded at least to some extent with each other as claimed by Paul Harrison.
IMO we have to be careful of believing anything JB tells us abut that evening as fact, it may or may not be true, we have no knowledge about what happened in the farmhouse after 10pm when Pamela and June spoke.
It seems to me if JB carried out the murders the most simple and therefore most likely probability is that he did leave through the main bedroom window.  It is quite unremarkable that a bedroom window was open in August therefore he had no worries about securing it from the inside... simple enough imo.

[Adam]

Therefore, you cannot say, and do not know how JB exited the house. You can only say that it was possible for him to do so.

Which, incidentally, is what was determined in court and reinforced at appeal.

If you're definition is of 'direct evidence' is a witness, video/photos of Bamber exiting WHF on the massacre night, then I agree by this definition there is no direct evidence.

[guest2181]

If you're definition is of 'direct evidence' is a witness, video/photos of Bamber exiting WHF on the massacre night, then I agree by this definition there is no direct evidence.

It's quite a simple concept to understand.

The only person who knows how JB entered and exited the house on the night of the murders, is JB himself. Yes, we can guess, surmise and give opinion of likliness, but we do not know for certain.

[Jane]

The only reason I ask is that the following is written in CAL's book:

The campaign website maintains that Essex Police are still withholding 175 photographs along with 340,000 pages of documents, many of them under Public Interest Immunity. However, in a letter dated 13 October 2013, Jeremy stated that he had now in fact seen ‘320,000 pages of the 340,000 pages that attracted PII’. In a second letter on 25 December 2013 he wrote that the entire 340,000 pages had been made available and could be used ‘in any way I so choose, but for the moment it is not going to assist me in having my appeal heard any sooner and actually it’ll muck up any future prosecution of those who deserve to be in jail’. The police position on his previous claims of withheld material is encapsulated in the declaration of former senior investigating officer Mike Ainsley: ‘Bamber was tried on an abundance of evidence and properly convicted. There was no miscarriage of justice. There were no grave errors in my investigation. No witness for the prosecution gave false or misleading evidence. There were no ‘paper’ errors. The defence lawyers had full and unencumbered access to ALL of the police statements, documents and exhibits at any time.’

It crosses my mind that if Jeremy leaves it much longer, there'll be no one left to prosecute "of those who deserve to be in jail". My neighbours and friends who were close to Nevill and June are now in their 90's. Those who were senior members of the investigating team/senior family members are now old. Several have died. Does he intend to prosecute their offspring?

[maggie]

All the evidence points to Bamber climbing out of the kitchen window -

He said he knew how enter/exit the kitchen window.

The housekeeper said crime scene photos showed fixed items around the kitchen window had been moved.

One of the kitchen window locks could be banged shut from outside.

The horizontal lock could not be banged onto it's pegs from outside. This lock was found off it's pegs which would not be the case if June/Neville had shut this window.

Julie testified that Bamber had told her he had found a way out of WHF and secure the same window from outside.

There is no evidence that JB exited through the kitchen window.

Even if it was possible to exit and secure the window when outside it is only proof that he MAY have exited that way. 

It proves he or someone else had the ability to enter and exit the farmhouse via that window or by some other means such as the upstairs window.     

However all the court required was proof the house could have been entered, secured and exited somehow. 

The fact the finger was pointed at JB was due to the phone call from Nevill which made it clear either JB or Sheila or both were responsible for the killings.

[Jane]

Hi Roch, I agree it is a possibility that JB and Sheila may have colluded at least to some extent with each other as claimed by Paul Harrison.
IMO we have to be careful of believing anything JB tells us abut that evening as fact, it may or may not be true, we have no knowledge about what happened in the farmhouse after 10pm when Pamela and June spoke.
It seems to me if JB carried out the murders the most simple and therefore most likely probability is that he did leave through the main bedroom window.  It is quite unremarkable that a bedroom window was open in August therefore he had no worries about securing it from the inside... simple enough imo.

I've never seen it written that Jeremy did more than drive Sheila home from the weekend party because she was tired. It seems to me, that even if he hadn't spent the evening in conversation with her, he'd have gained some indication of her mental state during the drive. Her friends all talk about her fragility during her last fortnight yet Jeremy makes no mention of any impression he may have absorbed during that journey. Interestingly, neither has Julie.

[guest2181]

It crosses my mind that if Jeremy leaves it much longer, there'll be no one left to prosecute "of those who deserve to be in jail". My neighbours and friends who were close to Nevill and June are now in their 90's. Those who were senior members of the investigating team/senior family members are now old. Several have died. Does he intend to prosecute their offspring?

That is very true.

Does it not also strike you as odd, that he appears to be more focused on causing harm to others rather than simply clearing his name. Perhaps it is just badly worded but if the 'smoking gun' was contained in the previously withheld documentation, then he is apparently content to just bide his time.

Of course, another possibility is that the allegedly, previously withheld documents simply do not cast doubt on his conviction. 

[guest2181]

There is no evidence that JB exited through the kitchen window.

Even if it was possible to exit and secure the window when outside it is only proof that he MAY have exited that way. 

It proves he or someone else had the ability to enter and exit the farmhouse via that window or by some other means such as the upstairs window.     

However all the court required was proof the house could have been entered, secured and exited somehow. 

The fact the finger was pointed at JB was due to the phone call from Nevill which made it clear either JB or Sheila or both were responsible for the killings.

Thanks Maggie, you can take over explaining it to Adam now, I have a headache. 

[Jane]

That is very true.

Does it not also strike you as odd, that he appears to be more focused on causing harm to others rather than simply clearing his name. Perhaps it is just badly worded but if the 'smoking gun' was contained in the previously withheld documentation, then he is apparently content to just bide his time.

Of course, another possibility is that the allegedly, previously withheld documents simply do not cast doubt on his conviction. 

He certainly appears to be shifting the focus. It may well be that having sifted through those papers with a fine tooth comb he's found that every "T" has been crossed and every "I" dotted.

[guest2181]

He certainly appears to be shifting the focus. It may well be that having sifted through those papers with a fine tooth comb he's found that every "T" has been crossed and every "I" dotted.

Given the admission of disclosure, one wonders what the Campaign Team are playing at?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_AMpl4jeqWkcFRkV0YtWFY3ek0/view?usp=sharing

[maggie]

Thanks Maggie, you can take over explaining it to Adam now, I have a headache. 

Thanks Harters,

Just remembered there's a brick wall I have to go and bang my head against. 

Joke Adam... Joke!!!