Second thoughts of the twins being shot first: Shooting order resolved ?

[Romeo]

Adam I agree with most of your assumptions regarding the shootings they are feasible IMO

Whichever point in time the twins were shot, I think they were initially shot just once each.

Upstairs                                  Downstairs                                     Upstairs Again

Twins   2 shots                                                                                 twins  6 shots 
June     3 shots                                                                                 June   4 shots
Sheila  2 shots                                 
Neville  4 shots          Reload Neville shot 4 times Reload 10 bullets                                                             

I believe that JB thought the initial shots would kill them all hence 11 bullets set-up and ready to use after the rabbit story. JB probably thought - 1 shot each to twins, 3 shots each to others 11 shots in all.  But Neville was still on his feet with JB having no bullets left! In kitchen struggle takes place, Neville knocked out.  JB reloads from kitchen unit, shoots Neville 4 times,  JB reloads again to 10 bullets... now in panic  that the other victims are still alive as Neville was after being shot 4 times!... JB goes back upstairs and shoots the twins 6 times, June 4 more times.  With June only being shot 3 times the first time it's possible she would be able to move around the room. Neville must have been the last one shot upstairs the first time, as otherwise NB would have had more shots fired at him before he made it downstairs. Sheila has obviously made her way around to her father's side of the bed for protection, followed by June. NB is shot to his left side by JB who stood in the doorway. Most of the cartridge cases were found by June's side of the bed. The C cases fall to the front and on the right of a rifle. 

I don't expect everyone to agree, it's just my opinion at the moment.

[Steve_uk]

Adam I agree with most of your assumptions regarding the shootings they are feasible IMO

Whichever point in time the twins were shot, I think they were initially shot just once each.

Upstairs                                  Downstairs                                     Upstairs Again

Twins   2 shots                                                                                 twins  6 shots 
June     3 shots                                                                                 June   4 shots
Sheila  2 shots                                 
Neville  4 shots          Reload Neville shot 4 times Reload 10 bullets                                                             

I believe that JB thought the initial shots would kill them all hence 11 bullets set-up and ready to use after the rabbit story. JB probably thought - 1 shot each to twins, 3 shots each to others 11 shots in all.  But Neville was still on his feet with JB having no bullets left! In kitchen struggle takes place, Neville knocked out.  JB reloads from kitchen unit, shoots Neville 4 times,  JB reloads again to 10 bullets... now in panic  that the other victims are still alive as Neville was after being shot 4 times!... JB goes back upstairs and shoots the twins 6 times, June 4 more times.  With June only being shot 3 times the first time it's possible she would be able to move around the room. Neville must have been the last one shot upstairs the first time, as otherwise NB would have had more shots fired at him before he made it downstairs. Sheila has obviously made her way around to her father's side of the bed for protection, followed by June. NB is shot to his left side by JB who stood in the doorway. Most of the cartridge cases were found by June's side of the bed. The C cases fall to the front and on the right of a rifle. 

I don't expect everyone to agree, it's just my opinion at the moment.

Hi Romeo I'm not sure there were three in the master bedroom to start with if that's what you're implying? I think Sheila was fetched from her bedroom after the demise of her parents and sons.

[Romeo]

Yes she could well have been Steve,

I just wonder about what she was doing whilst all the shooting was going on. Sheila loved and looked up to her father and I thought she'd go to him for protection.

[Steve_uk]

Yes she could well have been Steve,

I just wonder about what she was doing whilst all the shooting was going on. Sheila loved and looked up to her father and I thought she'd go to him for protection.

I wonder what the relationship was between brother and sister those last few days. They are at least on speaking terms as Sheila brings the children to the tractor, yet Jeremy tells the Police only hours later "we don't get on..I don't like her and she doesn't like me." Had there been no trust between them it's possible Sheila could have resisted when marshalled into the master bedroom. Did Jeremy disguise his voice(Julie tells us his plan was to wear a mask and gloves) or was he by that stage spinning a story to Sheila in those last final seconds that intruders had broken into the Farm and their father had gone downstairs to investigate? The first shot not killing her outright suggests to me Jeremy shot her hastily upon entry to the bedroom before she had time to make any reconnoitre of her surroundings, the only good thing coming from this was that she died not knowing the fate of her sons.

[Romeo]

I think the children were the ones who wanted to see the New tractor....wasn't one of them lifted into the new tractor by JB...I'm sure I've read that. I also read that Sheila wrote in her diary that day ...she didn't mean to be nasty to Jeremy... It's funny JB couldn't remember what they spoke about either when questioned about it. As far as Sheila being shot hastily.....she could well have been, but she was half sitting at the time which made me thing she was hiding. Perhaps she was told by JB to sit there though. I'm still undecided as to Neville being in the room to start with, so your point about could all three be there is interesting to me.

I reckon JB was masked somehow and had gloves on..... there was talk about a wetsuit used, parts of which were found at either WHF or the cottage. I've also read that JB went to the coast with friends after the murders and used someone else's wetsuit as he's was being altered Hmmm!

[Steve_uk]

I think the children were the ones who wanted to see the New tractor....wasn't one of them lifted into the new tractor by JB...I'm sure I've read that. I also read that Sheila wrote in her diary that day ...she didn't mean to be nasty to Jeremy... It's funny JB couldn't remember what they spoke about either when questioned about it. As far as Sheila being shot hastily.....she could well have been, but she was half sitting at the time which made me thing she was hiding. Perhaps she was told by JB to sit there though. I'm still undecided as to Neville being in the room to start with, so your point about could all three be there is interesting to me.

I reckon JB was masked somehow and had gloves on..... there was talk about a wetsuit used, parts of which were found at either WHF or the cottage. I've also read that JB went to the coast with friends after the murders and used someone else's wetsuit as he's was being altered Hmmm!

Thinking about the wetsuit for a moment he could have left it in a hidden location at the Farm and put it on over work clothes after ingression. Julie said it was normally kept at Bourtree Cottage but apparently one part of it was found at the Farm. I didn't know wetsuits were two-piece as I have never worn one. It does indicate that it could well have been worn during the murders, and he subsequently showered off specks of blood as the showerhead was detached from its fitting.

The tractor episode is heartbreaking in retrospect. The Jeremy supporters are all too fond of besmirching Sheila in her handling of the children, which as Social Services found was due to neglect from her illness more than anything, but never did Jeremy compensate by engaging in any fun activity with them. His nonchalant manner post-murders as he jaunted to Cannes, Amsterdam and Pevensey Bay tells me what little if any effect the murders had on him(the parallels with David Bain are striking here-never any questions about why the perpetrator did it) and there was no Defence at all from his part save everyone else was either lying or mistaken, as the combination of bluff and arrogance evinced in the witness box almost secured his freedom.

[Adam]

Adam I agree with most of your assumptions regarding the shootings they are feasible IMO

Whichever point in time the twins were shot, I think they were initially shot just once each.

Upstairs                                  Downstairs                                     Upstairs Again

Twins   2 shots                                                                                 twins  6 shots 
June     3 shots                                                                                 June   4 shots
Sheila  2 shots                                 
Neville  4 shots          Reload Neville shot 4 times Reload 10 bullets                                                             

I believe that JB thought the initial shots would kill them all hence 11 bullets set-up and ready to use after the rabbit story. JB probably thought - 1 shot each to twins, 3 shots each to others 11 shots in all.  But Neville was still on his feet with JB having no bullets left! In kitchen struggle takes place, Neville knocked out.  JB reloads from kitchen unit, shoots Neville 4 times,  JB reloads again to 10 bullets... now in panic  that the other victims are still alive as Neville was after being shot 4 times!... JB goes back upstairs and shoots the twins 6 times, June 4 more times.  With June only being shot 3 times the first time it's possible she would be able to move around the room. Neville must have been the last one shot upstairs the first time, as otherwise NB would have had more shots fired at him before he made it downstairs. Sheila has obviously made her way around to her father's side of the bed for protection, followed by June. NB is shot to his left side by JB who stood in the doorway. Most of the cartridge cases were found by June's side of the bed. The C cases fall to the front and on the right of a rifle. 

I don't expect everyone to agree, it's just my opinion at the moment.

It's possible he wanted to commit the massacre using just 11 bullets. Aware that people would ask whether Sheila could chamber and reload.

This could mean  shooting the twins first. One bullet each. Then using 4 bullets each on June and Neville, and 1 bullet on Sheila. Making a total of 11 bullets.

This would explain why June was able to walk around after being shot in bed. She was only shot four times. Bamber only shot Neville four times upstairs as he didn't want to empty the rifle, as he wanted to keep the last bullet for Sheila.


Bamber's plans to use just 11 bullets went out of the window when Neville woke and got downstairs. After the brutal fight and having to shoot Neville 4 more times,  he decided to make it look like a Sheila was  in an uncontrollable crazy rage. So shot the twins more times.

He then had no option but to shoot June three more times, and Sheila twice as both remained alive after getting their opening shots.


However it's just as possible Bamber set out to fire 20+ bullets from the beginning. Which matches him getting a frantic call from Neville about a 'crazy Sheila'.   Telling the police on the night Sheila knew how to use all the rifles at WHF, suggesting she could chamber and reload.

[Harry]

He hasn't found anything, it's already been mentioned in submissions and thrown OUT! Just more of David bragging and wanting credit for what someone else has already mentioned. He even knows himself that hypostasis has already formed part of submissions to the CCRC and was REJECTED. In fact it was David himself who posted the document! 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6955.msg326043.html#msg326043

The very opposite is the truth.
Professors Meloni and Cavalli said that the factors mentioned below played no part in their judgement which was based upon the photograph showing leaking blood-the one you say is "enhanced".



"Whereas there is an apparent drainage of fluid from the blood bullet holes (it also stated by police officer) and therefore do not have apparently completed the phenomena of coagulation that do occur in the post-mortem, it can be assumed, lacking other elements of judgment, such as:
• rigor mortis
• body temperature
• External hypostasis
that the time of death can be placed over a period of no more than 2 hours before the discovery of the body itself."

Their evidence was rejected by the CCRC but without there being any scientific support for their decision.

[Steve_uk]

The very opposite is the truth.
Professors Meloni and Cavalli said that the factors mentioned below played no part in their judgement which was based upon the photograph showing leaking blood-the one you say is "enhanced".



"Whereas there is an apparent drainage of fluid from the blood bullet holes (it also stated by police officer) and therefore do not have apparently completed the phenomena of coagulation that do occur in the post-mortem, it can be assumed, lacking other elements of judgment, such as:
• rigor mortis
• body temperature
• External hypostasis
that the time of death can be placed over a period of no more than 2 hours before the discovery of the body itself."

Their evidence was rejected by the CCRC but without there being any scientific support for their decision.

Could there be another reason for the apparent flow of blood on the photograph, such as Police attempting to give Sheila CPR? The professors mention "arrest of cardiac" which I'm assuming is when her heart stopped. Maybe we could do with the help of Amanda Knox here-or then again maybe not.

[David1819]

He hasn't found anything, it's already been mentioned in submissions and thrown OUT! Just more of David bragging and wanting credit for what someone else has already mentioned. He even knows himself that hypostasis has already formed part of submissions to the CCRC and was REJECTED. In fact it was David himself who posted the document! 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6955.msg326043.html#msg326043

The Italian professors did not use hypostasis. It was the blood on her neck that was the primary focus.

And you accuse me of twisting things? Oh dear Caroline

And just for record it was rejected but not challenged. Like yourself the CCRC are just finding excuses.

[David1819]

Yes she could well have been Steve,

I just wonder about what she was doing whilst all the shooting was going on. Sheila loved and looked up to her father and I thought she'd go to him for protection.

Pulling the trigger.

[Adam]

Yes she could well have been Steve,

I just wonder about what she was doing whilst all the shooting was going on. Sheila loved and looked up to her father and I thought she'd go to him for protection.

There is no reason why Sheila would wake. Thread created.

No one upstairs would wake her. The twins died in their sleep, June was shot several times while she slept and Neville ran straight down stairs while being shot. All shots were silent with the silencer on.

Downstairs the kitchen fight was a long way away in a large house. Sheila asleep with her bedroom door shut is unlikely to hear it.

If she did hear noise and got up, CAL said she would be drowsy from medication. As well as being half asleep and not knowing what was happening. As a recovering anorexic suffering from Tardrive Dyskensia she would have put up no resistance to Bamber.

[Caroline]

The Italian professors did not use hypostasis. It was the blood on her neck that was the primary focus.

And you accuse me of twisting things? Oh dear Caroline

And just for record it was rejected but not challenged. Like yourself the CCRC are just finding excuses.

So, your translation doesn't list 'external hypostasis' - I must be seeing things. 

[Caroline]

The very opposite is the truth.
Professors Meloni and Cavalli said that the factors mentioned below played no part in their judgement which was based upon the photograph showing leaking blood-the one you say is "enhanced".



"Whereas there is an apparent drainage of fluid from the blood bullet holes (it also stated by police officer) and therefore do not have apparently completed the phenomena of coagulation that do occur in the post-mortem, it can be assumed, lacking other elements of judgment, such as:
• rigor mortis
• body temperature
• External hypostasis
that the time of death can be placed over a period of no more than 2 hours before the discovery of the body itself."

Their evidence was rejected by the CCRC but without there being any scientific support for their decision.

I believe it is enhanced - how do you reconcile the picture you're posting with this one. Also, the above mentions that a police officer described seeing 'leaking blood' - He didn't say 'running' and blood had evidently leaked from her mouth so how would you have described it? It's similar to claims that Sheila was on the left side on the bed - some take that LITERALLY but the fact is, she was on the left side of the bed. The missing word of 'floor' has allowed for speculation as has the above example.

[David1819]

So, your translation doesn't list 'external hypostasis' - I must be seeing things. 

It does but if your actually read the sentences in their entirety and not just a word.

lacking other elements of judgment, such as
• rigor mortis
• body temperature
• External hypostasis
 

These were not areas they explored.

I believe it is enhanced - how do you reconcile the picture you're posting with this one

The one you are going by is a copy of a copy. Look at the colour of the carpet in both photos, Their carpet was/is beige not dark grey and green

I have seen an actual scan of the original photo, Its not enhanced at all.

Jeremy is innocent, No matter how much bacon you could smell in those letters he wrote you.

The glasses remain on