Author Topic: "Hypostasis Worse Indicator of TOD than Rigor Mortis" Professor Bernard Knight  (Read 10355 times)

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Offline zoe

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But surely this is based on findings of that time, however scientific procedures according to experts in scientific fields back those days could come up with another solution to the argument based on today's scientific research, Science moves forwards ALL the time.

Offline zoe

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Hypostastis is when the body is stood upright and standing still, which is what he bases his findings on!

Offline zoe

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and the deposits drain to the foundation

Offline Harry

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"You may not be able to pinpoint the time of death from rigor or hypostasis, but nevertheless be able to rule out a time which is obviously impossible."

Yes, IF you're able to examine the bodies and not just photographs.


You seem to be confusing two different points. Professor Knight did not mean to say that he thought rigor mortis and hypostasis were reliable indicators if they were perceived directly as opposed to being viewed in photographs. With respect to the point he was making they are just as unreliable when perceived directly by an examiner.

Meloni and Cavalli did not express a view which contradicted that of Knight in the article. They were answering a different question. To rule out a time of death which is obviously impossible to a trained expert is not the same as giving an accurate estimation.

The absence of rigor mortis.

The absence of advanced hypostasis.

Fresh blood still flowing from the second wound.

These are three indications that Sheila could not have been dead for as long as seven hours.

By the way, I would like to know which experts back the view that this photograph is "enhanced".




It's just a myth which originated on forums.

On the other hand, this degraded image has has distorted colours which suggests it has been copied several times. The carpet is a dingy grey colour.


Compare it to the one showing the true colour of the carpet.





« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 06:45:AM by Harry »

Offline lookout

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Exactly Harry.

Offline Caroline

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You seem to be confusing two different points. Professor Knight did not mean to say that he thought rigor mortis and hypostasis were reliable indicators if they were perceived directly as opposed to being viewed in photographs. With respect to the point he was making they are just as unreliable when perceived directly by an examiner.

Meloni and Cavalli did not express a view which contradicted that of Knight in the article. They were answering a different question. To rule out a time of death which is obviously impossible to a trained expert is not the same as giving an accurate estimation.

The absence of rigor mortis.

The absence of advanced hypostasis.

Fresh blood still flowing from the second wound.

These are three indications that Sheila could not have been dead for as long as seven hours.

By the way, I would like to know which experts back the view that this photograph is "enhanced".




It's just a myth which originated on forums.

On the other hand, this degraded image has has distorted colours which suggests it has been copied several times. The carpet is a dingy grey colour.


Compare it to the one showing the true colour of the carpet.



I'm not confusing anything, I read  the report, did you?

"Fresh blood was flowing from the second wound" - can you see blood 'flowing' on this photograph? The blood which had ran from her mouth is dried and cracked, there is no expirated blood so she had been dead for some time. Never mind the colour of the carpet (although I don't know how you know the 'true' colour'), the blood is dried!

« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 12:32:PM by Caroline »
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Exactly. through NOT guilty eyes as well as GUILTY eyes, not once did she ever look through objective and impartial eyes  ::)

She is a partisan that went from one extreme to the other

Listen, you might set yourself up as an expert on just about any subject known to man - but there is something you don't know, which is what I think. However, in moving from not guilty to guilty, there was a time when I wasn't sure! So, big mouth, stick to debating the case and not what I might or might not be thinking. You have gone from not sure, to complete zealot, worse than many of the hardliners we have had in the past. However, they were concerned to MOJ, you have your own selfish reasons. My reasons? I don't want someone who killed 5 people (including two six year old boys), to get out! I can't control that and I'm not arrogant enough to believe I can, although I don't think it will ever happen, I'm as free to post here as anyone else - and I will do!

Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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It's no use goading me David....   Lookout says you also, at one time, didn't believe SC was guilty. Everyone has the right to change their minds...like it or not.

Thank you Romeo, when the goading starts, you know they're losing. I think David should send errrr 'his' second theory to Jeremy's lawyers - although it's another thing that has been debated here  ::) and already formed part of submissions to the CCRC and rejected. In fact any theory by David should form the basis for any and all submissions that Jeremy makes in the future, after all - he's an expert in everything and if he states it, it becomes fact!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

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If Sheila had been made disabled after the first shot,all those drips of blood around her on the carpet must have come from June who would/must have been the last one standing.
The striated blood patterns on Sheila's arm could also have come from blood dripping from June and running down Sheila's arm.
It had been June who was in the room where the rifle was standing up at the window because blood drips belonging to June were found there too.

The window where the gun had been seen was a different window from that which showed it was no longer there. The panes in one window are longer.

Offline Jane

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If Sheila had been made disabled after the first shot,all those drips of blood around her on the carpet must have come from June who would/must have been the last one standing.
The striated blood patterns on Sheila's arm could also have come from blood dripping from June and running down Sheila's arm.
It had been June who was in the room where the rifle was standing up at the window because blood drips belonging to June were found there too.

The window where the gun had been seen was a different window from that which showed it was no longer there. The panes in one window are longer.

Who, then, administered June's fatal shot? She didn't die beside Sheila. She made her way back to the other side of the room. By no stretch of imagination can I see how it would have been possible for Sheila to have pulled the trigger.

Offline David1819

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Thank you Romeo, when the goading starts, you know they're losing. I think David should send errrr 'his' second theory to Jeremy's lawyers - although it's another thing that has been debated here  ::) and already formed part of submissions to the CCRC and rejected. In fact any theory by David should form the basis for any and all submissions that Jeremy makes in the future, after all - he's an expert in everything and if he states it, it becomes fact!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Show me where post mortem Hypostasis has been submitted to the CCRC before

Offline David1819

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you have your own selfish reasons.

I have my own selfish reasons? LOL you really do believe you can read people don't you? Bless your cotton socks  :)

My reasons? I don't want someone who killed 5 people (including two six year old boys), to get out!

But you want someone who has killed nobody to stay in?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:24:PM by David1819 »

Offline lookout

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Who, then, administered June's fatal shot? She didn't die beside Sheila. She made her way back to the other side of the room. By no stretch of imagination can I see how it would have been possible for Sheila to have pulled the trigger.





I've been figuring this out for years, though it could possibly have been of her own doing,and the rifle at first found was roughly 18ins away BETWEEN the two women and not on Sheila's body !! I've also been convinced that Sheila had originally grabbed that rifle as a defence against what was to come,because I don't think Sheila killed her boys and neither did Jeremy.
There was only one person who went mad that night and it was June,who through her own illness had snapped. Her inability to have children had earlier caused her deep depression. Then even after adopting had created another bout of depression. The top and bottom of it was that she wasn't coping with any situation involving bringing up her family. Sheila's nightmares at being told Bible stories about the " Devil " when she'd been at an impressionable age ( psychological abuse )
June's behaviour hadn't been normal in lots of areas. The hysterical fit at finding a 17 year old Sheila in a " clinch ". Her decision to abort a pregnancy ( unforgiveable ) Her refusal to allow her pregnant daughter the wish to be married in the local church. The strictly religious household where two little boys dreaded going to. MOST children love going to grannies house !!

Then there was the " weird " note/letter to the family from June ( date written,needed ) Junes' latter 6 month visits to her GP. June's medication ( also needed to ascertain her mental health ) she herself at a " young " age of 60,physically fit,but had been in no fit state mentally to look after the twins if Sheila had to convalesce, as fostering became the spoken word.
End of tether springs to mind in someone with a long history of severe depression and whose mental health had been severely impaired over the years,would be my final take on this terrible tragedy.

Offline Jane

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I've been figuring this out for years, though it could possibly have been of her own doing,and the rifle at first found was roughly 18ins away BETWEEN the two women and not on Sheila's body !! I've also been convinced that Sheila had originally grabbed that rifle as a defence against what was to come,because I don't think Sheila killed her boys and neither did Jeremy.
There was only one person who went mad that night and it was June,who through her own illness had snapped. Her inability to have children had earlier caused her deep depression. Then even after adopting had created another bout of depression. The top and bottom of it was that she wasn't coping with any situation involving bringing up her family. Sheila's nightmares at being told Bible stories about the " Devil " when she'd been at an impressionable age ( psychological abuse )
June's behaviour hadn't been normal in lots of areas. The hysterical fit at finding a 17 year old Sheila in a " clinch ". Her decision to abort a pregnancy ( unforgiveable ) Her refusal to allow her pregnant daughter the wish to be married in the local church. The strictly religious household where two little boys dreaded going to. MOST children love going to grannies house !!

Then there was the " weird " note/letter to the family from June ( date written,needed ) Junes' latter 6 month visits to her GP. June's medication ( also needed to ascertain her mental health ) she herself at a " young " age of 60,physically fit,but had been in no fit state mentally to look after the twins if Sheila had to convalesce, as fostering became the spoken word.
End of tether springs to mind in someone with a long history of severe depression and whose mental health had been severely impaired over the years,would be my final take on this terrible tragedy.

But you're not giving a definitive answer to  how June's fatal shot was administered. She'd been badly injured. It's miraculous that the managed to drag herself round to the other side of the be even WITHOUT the bullet wound to her leg. I can no more believe that June did it herself any more than I can believe a wounded Sheila did it. THAT would raise the question of who administered Sheila's fatal shot.

Offline David1819

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But you're not giving a definitive answer to  how June's fatal shot was administered. She'd been badly injured. It's miraculous that the managed to drag herself round to the other side of the be even WITHOUT the bullet wound to her leg. I can no more believe that June did it herself any more than I can believe a wounded Sheila did it. THAT would raise the question of who administered Sheila's fatal shot.

Jeremy was outside in police custody when Sheila's fatal shot was administered self inflicted.

If you look at the position of Junes entire body. You can see she has collapsed backwards while standing up, while she is collapsing the door has forced her upper body and head to change direction slightly while her legs and lower body remain in the original direction. The final two shots were inflicted after she collapsed, whether she was dead or alive when the final two shots were inflicted I don't know.