Author Topic: "Hypostasis Worse Indicator of TOD than Rigor Mortis" Professor Bernard Knight  (Read 10353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
According to Professor Bernard Knight, "Hypostasis  is a worse indicator of TOD than rigor mortis" - in fact, it doesn't even always happen!

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/post-mortem-interval/




Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
It still doesn't alter the fact that a time of death should have been given. It was a mass murder regardless of who did it or who EP thought had done it and the best test is to see if the belly is still warm. Couldn't have been easier.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
It still doesn't alter the fact that a time of death should have been given. It was a mass murder regardless of who did it or who EP thought had done it and the best test is to see if the belly is still warm. Couldn't have been easier.

I don't dispute that Lookout.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
I don't dispute that Lookout.





Just for arguments sake say Dr Craig had felt the middle part of Sheila and it had still been warm,the indications being that death would have taken place no more than 2 to 3 hours previous as that's about how long it takes before the body cools down,allowing for atmosphere.
JB would have been outside during that time and there'd have been no case to answer.
It's so unfair.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13783
According to Professor Bernard Knight, "Hypostasis  is a worse indicator of TOD than rigor mortis" - in fact, it doesn't even always happen!

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/post-mortem-interval/

It sais it Doesn't always happen in children and the elderly  ;D

Besides at least you realise the significance of this since you are trying to find an answer.

The discrepancy of lividity between June and Shelia is undeniable. She has not been dead for over 7 hours but June has

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
It sais it Doesn't always happen in children and the elderly  ;D

Besides at least you realise the significance of this since you are trying to find an answer.

The discrepancy of lividity between June and Shelia is undeniable. She has not been dead for over 7 hours but June has

It said FOR INSTANCE children and the elderly, not ONLY  children and the elderly - this shows how dishonest you are and how your try and twist things to fit. I know what you have written and tried to pass of as fact (eve though it's just YOUR OPINION!) is rubbish. People may not take my word for it, but they should take the word of an expert and the only thing that is undeniable is your desperation and arrogance.   

They don't use lividity to determine time of death and they certainly wouldn't use a grainy old picture with high pink tones to determine anything!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Harry

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
According to Professor Bernard Knight, "Hypostasis  is a worse indicator of TOD than rigor mortis" - in fact, it doesn't even always happen!

http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/post-mortem-interval/

When Professor Knight says that hypostasis and rigor mortis are unreliable as indicators of time of death, he doesn't mean to assert that nothing at all can be inferred from the presence or absence of either condition.

Meloni and Cavalli said that they were unable to determine Sheila's time of death with any great degree of accuracy, but nevertheless said they were able to set a limit as to what was possible. They said that she could not have been dead for more than two hours before the body was found. That was not a vague statement but a categorical assertion on their part. The CCRC rejected their evidence, although their opinion remains unchallenged.

You may not be able to pinpoint the time of death from rigor or hypostasis, but nevertheless be able to rule out a time which is obviously impossible.
 
I strongly suspect that Bamber's lawyers don't understand this important distinction and have just accepted that photographic evidence can't be used to prove time of death in a more vague sense.


« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 05:20:AM by Harry »

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13783
It said FOR INSTANCE children and the elderly, not ONLY  children and the elderly - this shows how dishonest you are and how your try and twist things to fit. I know what you have written and tried to pass of as fact (eve though it's just YOUR OPINION!) is rubbish.

That's rich coming from you! Your calling me dishonest and say I am twisting things?

Was it me that spread the lie about the photo's of Sheila's feet? NO it was YOU.
Was it me that tried to peddle JM as a credible witness knowing she was anything but? NO it was YOU.
Was it me who claimed a massive list of untainted circumstantial evidence against Jeremy exists? NO it was YOU.

Is it me that refuse to give straight answers as to why I hold the positions that I do? NO its YOU
Am I the one that reverses the burden of proof on those that disagree with me?  NO its YOU

People may not take my word for it, but they should take the word of an expert

They don't use lividity to determine time of death and they certainly wouldn't use a grainy old picture with high pink tones to determine anything!

I agree lets take the word of an expert.  8)

But I guess you wont accept the words below because you don't care about reality. Your belief in JBs guilt is like that of a religion, much like the Islamist's faith in Allah. Tila Tequila believes the earth is flat and showing her photographic of proof of it being otherwise does not stop her believing its flat. Guess the same applies to you on this subject  ::)


The time of death is sometimes extremely important. It is a question almost invariably asked by investigating officers, sometimes with a touching faith in the accuracy of the estimate. Determining the time of death is extremely difficult, and accuracy is impossible".
A recurring problem in forensic medicine is the need to fix the time of death within the limits of probability. It is self-evident that the longer the interval of time between death and the examination of the body, the wider will be the limits of probability.
Various methods have been tried to find out the time of death. These include study of physical, chemical, biochemical, histological and enzymatic changes which occur progressively in a dead body. Postmortem lividity is one of the physical changes useful for estimating time of death to a certain degree of accuracy.
Post-mortem lividity however, recently has received little serious attention reflected by the relative paucity of publications in this area. Much of what is known and written about the subject is in relation to gross observations on an anecdotal basis, with very few papers generated from properly designed studies1.

Post- mortem lividity is one of the important signs of death; it is also called the “darkening of death” because shortly after death, in from 20 minutes to 2 hours usually purple red blotches begin to appear in the skin. Within first 3-4 hours after death these livid blotches may be blanched out by pressure of the finger against the skin only to return when the finger is removed. After a vague, undefined length of time, when the blood hemolyses and stains the surrounding tissues by diffusion this maneuver cannot be repeated. The forensic significance of this change in the stability of the lividity is that if the position of the dead body has been changed after death but before lividity is fixed the findings of two different areas of distribution of lividity, such as in front and behind may serve as mute evidence that the body has been moved since death.2
Thus post-mortem lividity is very important in calculating time since death where other advanced techniques to determine time since death are not available. Therefore the present study is carried to know mechanism of formation and effect of factors affecting development of postmortem lividity in relation to determination of time since death, as it may be observed on all bodies, irrespective of cause of death and is seen although with difficulty even in deaths from hemorrhage.

MEDICOLEGAL SIGNIFICANCE OF POSTMORTEM LIVIDITY IN
DETERMINATION OF TIME SINCE DEATH
Anand P Rayamane

« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 05:40:AM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
That's rich coming from you! Your calling me dishonest and say I am twisting things?

Was it me that spread the lie about the photo's of Sheila's feet? NO it was YOU. I believe they aren't Sheila's feet - how is that a lie? More dishonesty from YOU
Was it me that tried to peddle JM as a credible witness knowing she was anything but? You haven't established that she isn't, although I don't believe everything she said - I believe there is more to it but more spin from you to twist what I said!
Was it me who claimed a massive list of untainted circumstantial evidence against Jeremy exists? NO it was YOU. Errr, I've wrote the list and will be adding to it, I haven't posted it on the forum because you refused to do the same in respect to Sheila. You keep saying it doesn't exist (like hypostasis on Sheila) but I'm afraid you are just wrong AGAIN!

Is it me that refuse to give straight answers as to why I hold the positions that I do? NO its YOU When asked if your report was based on the bible, you wouldn't answer because you knew where you got the idea from. Saying what it was based on doesn't give the whole thing away but you didn't want anyone to know that the basis wasn't original - DISHONEST!
Am I the one that reverses the burden of proof on those that disagree with me?  NO its YOU - We aren't in a court David, this isn't the CCRC or a CS lab, this is a discussion board where people share opinions. The whole thing has gone to your head and you have become a complete megalomaniac, making all kinds of ridiculous claims about what you have discovered.

I agree lets take the word of an expert.  8) - You're NOT an expert and Professor Knight states that it is a bad indicator for TOD!

But I guess you wont accept the words below because you don't care about reality. Your belief in JBs guilt is like that of a religion, much like the Islamist's faith in Allah. Tila Tequila believes the earth is flat and showing her photographic of proof of it being otherwise does not stop her believing its flat. Guess the same applies to you on this subject  ::) Are you for real?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The time of death is sometimes extremely important. It is a question almost invariably asked by investigating officers, sometimes with a touching faith in the accuracy of the estimate. Determining the time of death is extremely difficult, and accuracy is impossible".
A recurring problem in forensic medicine is the need to fix the time of death within the limits of probability. It is self-evident that the longer the interval of time between death and the examination of the body, the wider will be the limits of probability.
Various methods have been tried to find out the time of death. These include study of physical, chemical, biochemical, histological and enzymatic changes which occur progressively in a dead body. Postmortem lividity is one of the physical changes useful for estimating time of death to a certain degree of accuracy.
Post-mortem lividity however, recently has received little serious attention reflected by the relative paucity of publications in this area. Much of what is known and written about the subject is in relation to gross observations on an anecdotal basis, with very few papers generated from properly designed studies1.

Post- mortem lividity is one of the important signs of death; it is also called the “darkening of death” because shortly after death, in from 20 minutes to 2 hours usually purple red blotches begin to appear in the skin. Within first 3-4 hours after death these livid blotches may be blanched out by pressure of the finger against the skin only to return when the finger is removed. After a vague, undefined length of time, when the blood hemolyses and stains the surrounding tissues by diffusion this maneuver cannot be repeated. The forensic significance of this change in the stability of the lividity is that if the position of the dead body has been changed after death but before lividity is fixed the findings of two different areas of distribution of lividity, such as in front and behind may serve as mute evidence that the body has been moved since death.2
Thus post-mortem lividity is very important in calculating time since death where other advanced techniques to determine time since death are not available. Therefore the present study is carried to know mechanism of formation and effect of factors affecting development of postmortem lividity in relation to determination of time since death, as it may be observed on all bodies, irrespective of cause of death and is seen although with difficulty even in deaths from hemorrhage.

MEDICOLEGAL SIGNIFICANCE OF POSTMORTEM LIVIDITY IN
DETERMINATION OF TIME SINCE DEATH
Anand P Rayamane

« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 12:17:PM by Caroline »
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
When Professor Knight says that hypostasis and rigor mortis are unreliable as indicators of time of death, he doesn't mean to assert that nothing at all can be inferred from the presence or absence of either condition. Where did I say that?

Meloni and Cavalli said that they were unable to determine Sheila's time of death with any great degree of accuracy, but nevertheless said they were able to set a limit as to what was possible. They said that she could not have been dead for more than two hours before the body was found. That was not a vague statement but a categorical assertion on their part. The CCRC rejected their evidence, although their opinion remains unchallenged. It was rejected because they were looking at photographs and not the the actual victims. If Sheila had been dead only a few hours, how come no one heard anything from inside the farmhouse through the open line? How come (if she killed everyone), there isn't one spot of other victims blood on either her or her nightdress? Putting Sheila in the fame beings up more questions than answers.

You may not be able to pinpoint the time of death from rigor or hypostasis, but nevertheless be able to rule out a time which is obviously impossible. Yes, IF you're able to examine the bodies and not just photographs.
 
I strongly suspect that Bamber's lawyers don't understand this important distinction and have just accepted that photographic evidence can't be used to prove time of death in a more vague sense. Well, give them a ring!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13783


Whatever Caroline.

The amount of excuses your prepared to come up with and the amount of evidence you deny or ignore makes it pointless having a discussion with you.

All because you like to believe you caught him out over a wallet, the trailer and picking poppies?

Outright delusional and totally pathetic!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 03:04:PM by David1819 »

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Whatever Caroline.

The amount of excuses your prepared to come up with and the amount of evidence you deny or ignore makes it pointless having a discussion with you.

All because you like to believe you caught him out over a wallet, the trailer and picking poppies?

Outright delusional and totally pathetic!


Compared with what, exactly, David? A mature woman with a brain and a degree versus a male with the mentality of a pubescent teenager with delusions of grandeur, hell bent on making some sort of name for himself on the back of another's work, to which end he's prepared to bend facts out of recognition and distort what's been said by experts until it becomes ludicrous? I'd say, when it comes to "Outright delusional and totally pathetic" you win gold, silver and bronze all on your own. No contest.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 03:22:PM by Jane J »

Offline notsure

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1684
It said FOR INSTANCE children and the elderly, not ONLY  children and the elderly - this shows how dishonest you are and how your try and twist things to fit. I know what you have written and tried to pass of as fact (eve though it's just YOUR OPINION!) is rubbish. People may not take my word for it, but they should take the word of an expert and the only thing that is undeniable is your desperation and arrogance.   

They don't use lividity to determine time of death and they certainly wouldn't use a grainy old picture with high pink tones to determine anything!

I see what you mean caroline,  however,  peter sutherst was an expert and you chose not to believe he wasvright. It all comes down to who you belueve. I read so ewhere that bringing experts in us the wrong thing to do as there is always some other expert to counter argument.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
I see what you mean caroline,  however,  peter sutherst was an expert and you chose not to believe he wasvright. It all comes down to who you belueve. I read so ewhere that bringing experts in us the wrong thing to do as there is always some other expert to counter argument.

He was discredited long before I gave an opinion.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
I see what you mean caroline,  however,  peter sutherst was an expert and you chose not to believe he wasvright. It all comes down to who you belueve. I read so ewhere that bringing experts in us the wrong thing to do as there is always some other expert to counter argument.

My late partner was an expert witness, Notsure. He rarely made it into the witness box, though. He was a very honourable man who had written books -Bibles within his profession- on his particular field of expertise and his integrity was never called into question. As soon as the 'other' side knew he was there, they settled out of court....................

.............WAS he always right? HE believed so but probably not!!!! However, to those for whom it mattered, he was NEVER wrong.