Who sowed the seeds

[Caroline]

haven't we completely missed the point though here Jane and maggie. There is no excuse not one single excuse that should allow the police to frame anyone. Not one single person. To say that any irish man would do makes it even worse doesn't it.

This isn't made up as fact Jane it is fact, police framed the Birmingham six and Guildford 4 , that was just awful.

Who said that framing 'any Irishman' was right? That was simply the way it was.

[maggie]

haven't we completely missed the point though here Jane and maggie. There is no excuse not one single excuse that should allow the police to frame anyone. Not one single person. To say that any irish man would do makes it even worse doesn't it.

This isn't made up as fact Jane it is fact, police framed the Birmingham six and Guildford 4 , that was just awful.

Hi notsure

I didn't say that I believed 'any Irishman would do', I was saying that was the belief by the police at the time. 

In no way do I agree with any kind of corruption by the police or anybody else. 

The fact is the post was about comparisons between the G4 and JB cases.  I was trying to highlight the excuses the police used for their corruption and appalling abuse of those men. I can still see the photos in the paper showing their injuries inflicted by the police who also used public fear as an excuse to beat them up.

In this particular instant my reply to Jackie was not about the proven police corruption, brutality etc towards the G4 but about whether there is any plausible possible reason why the police would have framed Jeremy Bamber. 

[maggie]

Thank you Notsure

Some members here seem to be suggesting police corruption is ok in different cases

I think you are misrepresenting what I said, Jackie.

[notsure]

Notsure, there was no excuse for what the Nazi's did to Jews and others during the war, but we don't now treat all Germans as racist and we don't expect them to keep doing abeyance for it. The way we imported slaves was hardly a time we can be proud of but we can't go on apologizing. OK it's FACT that police framed B6 and G4 but it was during a time of political unrest -NOT an excuse, I know- you appear to be saying that the police have to make restitution for these acts -despite that there probably aren't any in the force now, who were then- by absolving all criminals SOME believe innocent. Problem is there are always going to be differences of opinion so it COULD mean that ALL the guilty go free. This isn't a perfect world -if it was, there'd be no crimes- mistakes WILL be made. Mistakes were made in the investigation at WHF -primarily because of how Jeremy mislead the initial investigation- but the eventual outcome was the correct one.

I agree why would we expect the Germans to keep doing obey an enemy that's a ridiculous suggestion. And isn't a fair comparison, however if it were why do some police still do it.

[notsure]

Who said that framing 'any Irishman' was right? That was simply the way it was.

No it wasn't Caroline.

[Roch]

I think you are misrepresenting what I said, Jackie.

I think my own posts are sometimes misinterpreted too.  There seems to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to posts at the moment.

[maggie]

I think my own posts are sometimes misinterpreted too.  There seems to be a lot of knee-jerk reactions to posts at the moment.

Think some people see what they want to see Roch. 

[Roch]

Think some people see what they want to see Roch. 

There doesn't seem to be much restraint or measured posting going on.  This is what I mean by frenzy. There's a strange atmosphere on here at the moment.

[notsure]

Hi notsure

I didn't say that I believed 'any Irishman would do', I was saying that was the belief by the police at the time. 

In no way do I agree with any kind of corruption by the police or anybody else. 

The fact is the post was about comparisons between the G4 and JB cases.  I was trying to highlight the excuses the police used for their corruption and appalling abuse of those men. I can still see the photos in the paper showing their injuries inflicted by the police who also used public fear as an excuse to beat them up.

In this particular instant my reply to Jackie was not about the proven police corruption, brutality etc towards the G4 but about whether there is any plausible possible reason why the police would have framed Jeremy Bamber.

I do get what you were saying Maggie, it's difficult to for anyone to see how or why the police would frame jb. However the case was handled very badly and there imo opinion has to be a possibility that they got it wrong. The same principles would apply in the G4 or b6 don't you agree. The evidence just wasn't there but they made it stick didn't they. What does that say about our police force . Then or now it still happens and there really isn't any excuse. Same applies they were obviously under a lot of pressure from the family. I think there is a possibility they were hoodwinked into believing he had killed his family, and they had to stick to it.

[susan]

Hi notsure

I didn't say that I believed 'any Irishman would do', I was saying that was the belief by the police at the time. 

In no way do I agree with any kind of corruption by the police or anybody else. 

The fact is the post was about comparisons between the G4 and JB cases.  I was trying to highlight the excuses the police used for their corruption and appalling abuse of those men. I can still see the photos in the paper showing their injuries inflicted by the police who also used public fear as an excuse to beat them up.

In this particular instant my reply to Jackie was not about the proven police corruption, brutality etc towards the G4 but about whether there is any plausible possible reason why the police would have framed Jeremy Bamber.

Maggie  the Birmingham 6 and Guildford fitted the bill at that time due to certain circumstances.  As far as JB is concerned I think the police did frame him they felt he was guilty but they had no concrete evidence OR they were so incompetent they covered up their mishandling of the case by twisting the evidence,  I do think EP always thought he was guilty

[Jane]

There doesn't seem to be much restraint or measured posting going on.  This is what I mean by frenzy. There's a strange atmosphere on here at the moment.

The dynamic has changed, as is always the case when a member of a group/family is missing.

[JackiePreece]

Think some people see what they want to see Roch. 

I made my own mind up about the JB case being a moj

As you pointed out yesterday you do no know JB is guilty
That's a factual comment

You KNOW Maggie by reading other MOJ cases that the police lie numerous times in numerous cases

We don't know what went on in WHF that night but we do know the silencer should not have been used as a credible piece of evidence

Police destroy and have destroyed important evidence in cases and change statements when it suits them

There should be no room for errors and certainly never noble cause corruption

If we knew when the police were truthfull in the JB case and when they were covering evidence up we would not all be hear now

[maggie]

I do get what you were saying Maggie, it's difficult to for anyone to see how or why the police would frame jb. However the case was handled very badly and there imo opinion has to be a possibility that they got it wrong. The same principles would apply in the G4 or b6 don't you agree. The evidence just wasn't there but they made it stick didn't they. What does that say about our police force . Then or now it still happens and there really isn't any excuse. Same applies they were obviously under a lot of pressure from the family. I think there is a possibility they were hoodwinked into believing he had killed his family, and they had to stick to it.

I don't completely rule out the fact that after police changed tack and announced their initial belief of murder suicide was wrong and Jeremy not Sheila was responsible there was a discovery of evidence which proved that JB didn't do it after all and it had to be Sheila. 

I can see in such a situation it would have been compelling for them to avoid another U turn so to save their own skins they let JB guilty proceed and destroyed said evidence but that is a massive long shot imo. 

I have been on here since Jan/Feb 2012, maybe I'm jaded but I just can't go with any of the explanations for a frame up.

[JackiePreece]

Maggie

You must have seen it a million times on TV

How good for a policeman to 'solve' one of the biggest murder/suicides in Essex ever

That's a good starting point along with massive pressure from the family in regards the family jackpot

I know Jeremy and he is plain stupid. He would be one of the easiest people to stitch up

He is not clever and certainly not cunning and definately not streetwise

[susan]

I don't completely rule out the fact that after police changed tack and announced their initial belief of murder suicide was wrong and Jeremy not Sheila was responsible there was a discovery of evidence which proved that JB didn't do it after all and it had to be Sheila. 

I can see in such a situation it would have been compelling for them to avoid another U turn so to save their own skins they let JB guilty proceed and destroyed said evidence but that is a massive long shot imo. 

I have been on here since Jan/Feb 2012, maybe I'm jaded but I just can't go with any of the explanations for a frame up.

 

Maggie you must have doubts about the silencer evidence (the blob of jam grey hair) and Julie's evidence is very suspect to me would anyone tell their girlfriend they were going to murder their family then carry out the murders then dump her for another.  Don't think JB was that stupid.