What makes Bamber innocent?

[Adam]

That poor body in the pic looked as stiff as a board,so how would anyone get on with arranging his clothing ?
In fact,going by the pics of the two women,I'd have said that Neville had been dead for quite some time before them.

How do you believe the rifle burn marks got onto Neville's back Mike ?

[Adam]

I just find it difficult to imagine how anyone could have held the pyjama top up above the shoulders while holding the gun in the appropriate position . It would take 3 hands wouldn't it?

Maybe Sheila's accomplice Mike mentioned,  assisted her.

In Neville's position, once the pyjama top was pulled up, it would stay up.

[mike tesko]

We therefore end up with the flake and it's blood group activity associated with 'DB/1', and red paint from the scratched aga surround associated with 'DRB/1' - two different silencers...

The former ('DB/1') at the lab' from 30th August 1985, and the latter ('DRB/1') not at the lab' until 20th September 1985...

[mike tesko]

How do you believe the rifle burn marks got onto Neville's back Mike ?

I believe that the so called burn marks on the back of Ralph Bambers neck were caused by use of the 'BSA' air rifles barrel, being prodded into position, and fired without a pellet loaded in its chamber, and that compressed air was forced against the neck whilst the muzzle of the air rifle was in a contact, or close contact position with the neck at different times. I believe that if tests are done on pigskin using or adopting this technique the so called burn marks that were found will be replicated. Hence, proof that these murders and Sheila's death were not 'a one gun crime'...

[Jane]

I just find it difficult to imagine how anyone could have held the pyjama top up above the shoulders while holding the gun in the appropriate position . It would take 3 hands wouldn't it?

Maggie, to say I don't believe Adam is an understatement. Having done stats, though, I do understand how it's possible to 'organise' anything to fall the way one wishes it to be. Might have been interesting to see how many buttons he undid to make it possible, or the convenient position he employed to make it a possibility.

 Before we take another step here, logic says it's unreasonable to pull the bottom of the jacket up to expose a part of the body which would be more easily revealed by moving the collar. Unless the jacket had been pulled up away from arm pits and over head, it remains a fact that the arm pits would have restricted further movement. Jeremy would then have been faced with having to hold all the bunched up material out of the way with one hand whilst manipulating the length of the rifle with the other. IF those marks occurred during the massacre, it's perfectly possible that Jeremy MAY have tried to do it in the way Adam insists that he did but them gave up and took the more simple option, ie moving the collar SLIGHTLY.

[Adam]

No buttons were undone by me.

The experiment took 10 seconds. I already knew I could pull my shirt up to the top of my back, if in Neville's position.

If Bamber burnt Neville any higher than the top of his shoulder blades, it would be on his neck. However all reports are that Neville's back was burnt.

[lookout]

What would be the point in burning someone as well as shooting them as well ? What crosses the mind of anyone who resorts to such torture on another human being ?
The answer is : someone who is mentally ill and who doesn't realise what they are doing as their mind isn't in normal mode.

Quite some time had been spent/involved in various methods of abuse which were not the " norm " of someone whose intention was to go in and quickly wipe out everyone then make a swift exit.
What kind of a killer bothers putting down towels/cushions to cover areas of blood.?

[maggie]

Maggie, to say I don't believe Adam is an understatement. Having done stats, though, I do understand how it's possible to 'organise' anything to fall the way one wishes it to be. Might have been interesting to see how many buttons he undid to make it possible, or the convenient position he employed to make it a possibility.

 Before we take another step here, logic says it's unreasonable to pull the bottom of the jacket up to expose a part of the body which would be more easily revealed by moving the collar. Unless the jacket had been pulled up away from arm pits and over head, it remains a fact that the arm pits would have restricted further movement. Jeremy would then have been faced with having to hold all the bunched up material out of the way with one hand whilst manipulating the length of the rifle with the other. IF those marks occurred during the massacre, it's perfectly possible that Jeremy MAY have tried to do it in the way Adam insists that he did but them gave up and took the more simple option, ie moving the collar SLIGHTLY.

I see your points but I still cannot understand why anyone would do something so time consuming and awkward when there were quicker and easier alternatives.  Why burn someone to make sure they are dead?  If Nevill had shown signs of life on burning a well placed bullet would have been necessary as in June's case, so why go through such a performance for no reason?  I might add that a deeply unconscious Nevill may not have responded to the pain of burning but may have stayed alive until the police entered hours later therefore it was a poor and inconclusive test for someone who needed to be absolutely certain he had not left any witnesses alive.
I am not saying it didn't happen but I am perplexed why so many have accepted that was the reason for the burns.

[mike tesko]

None of the eight man raid party described finding items such as a towel, clothing, or seat cushions, on the floor around the base of the coal bucket inside which was contained Ralph Bambers head _ and all of them later made fresh witness statements stating that a part from moving two wooden stools none of them touched anything at all in the kitchen. If the kitchen had been set as it was depicted in the photographs taken by PC Bird from around 10 O'clock, cops would have been alerted immediately to foul play in the staged death scene in the kitchen because why would the killer, be it Sheila, Jeremy, or Sheila's accomplice place a towel, clothing and seat cushions on the kitchen floor in such a strategic position for the purpose of controlling the spread of blood on the kitchen floor? They would not. Also if the kitchen scene was photographed undisturbed, how did the raid party enter the main kitchen via the internal door which led to the back hallway, considering that there is a large wooden chair pushed up against it preventing that door from being opened?

[Caroline]

I see your points but I still cannot understand why anyone would do something so time consuming and awkward when there were quicker and easier alternatives.  Why burn someone to make sure they are dead?  If Nevill had shown signs of life on burning a well placed bullet would have been necessary as in June's case, so why go through such a performance for no reason?  I might add that a deeply unconscious Nevill may not have responded to the pain of burning but may have stayed alive until the police entered hours later therefore it was a poor and inconclusive test for someone who needed to be absolutely certain he had not left any witnesses alive.
I am not saying it didn't happen but I am perplexed why so many have accepted that was the reason for the burns.

Hi Maggie, I completely agree, the killer would have to waste time heating up the gun, and why would they need to burn Nevill three times? I can't see why would they bother in the first place when just prodding them with a sharp object, a kick or numerous other things would yield faster results? I don't think the injuries were part of the murders.

[Adam]

I've always thought it was perfectly feasible that Bamber burnt Neville's back. He had time and it was a way to check for life. It was easy to do and Neville was in the perfect body position. Neville was also next to an aga.

Bamber either did it after firing all shots into Neville and just before exiting the kitchen window. Or burnt him while continuing to shoot him if he thought there were still signs of life.

Either way, the back burning was done after Bamber returned downstairs from shooting June, the twins and Sheila. Neville had put up a tremendous fight for life earlier so Bamber had to make sure.

Similar to  Sheila sleeping with June, no one off the board has ever suggested the burn marks were not inflicted on the night. Even Bamber and several guilters agree it was. But appreciate people on here like to think outside the box. 

[Jane]

I've always thought it was perfectly feasible that Bamber burnt Neville's back. He had time and it was a way to check for life. It was easy to do and Neville was in the perfect body position. Neville was also next to an aga.

Bamber either did it after firing all shots into Neville and just before exiting the kitchen window. Or burnt him while continuing to shoot him if he thought there were still signs of life.

Either way, the back burning was done after Bamber returned downstairs from shooting June, the twins and Sheila. Neville had put up a tremendous fight for life earlier so Bamber had to make sure.

Similar to  Sheila sleeping with June, no one off the board has ever suggested the burn marks were not inflicted on the night. Even Bamber and several guilters agree it was. But appreciate people on here like to think outside the box.

Just because "no one off the board has ever suggested the burn marks were not inflicted on the night" it's neither indication nor clarification that they were. You MAY believe all you say is correct. As there is no way of you proving such, SOME of what you say maybe. EQUALLY so, it also maybe that others are correct.

[Caroline]

What would be the point in burning someone as well as shooting them as well ? What crosses the mind of anyone who resorts to such torture on another human being ?
The answer is : someone who is mentally ill and who doesn't realise what they are doing as their mind isn't in normal mode.

Quite some time had been spent/involved in various methods of abuse which were not the " norm " of someone whose intention was to go in and quickly wipe out everyone then make a swift exit.
What kind of a killer bothers putting down towels/cushions to cover areas of blood.?

Exactly, what would be the point?

[Caroline]

How do you believe the rifle burn marks got onto Neville's back Mike ?

It's an assumption that they are rifle marks.

[Caroline]

I've always thought it was perfectly feasible that Bamber burnt Neville's back. He had time and it was a way to check for life. It was easy to do and Neville was in the perfect body position. Neville was also next to an aga.

Bamber either did it after firing all shots into Neville and just before exiting the kitchen window. Or burnt him while continuing to shoot him if he thought there were still signs of life.

Either way, the back burning was done after Bamber returned downstairs from shooting June, the twins and Sheila. Neville had put up a tremendous fight for life earlier so Bamber had to make sure.

Similar to  Sheila sleeping with June, no one off the board has ever suggested the burn marks were not inflicted on the night. Even Bamber and several guilters agree it was. But appreciate people on here like to think outside the box.

So, you're saying no one has previously mentioned Sheila sleeping with June? Then how come one of you own posts from last year, refers to it? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7124.msg336489.html#msg336489

I first mentioned it when we discovered Nevill's slippers in the room Sheila was supposed to be sleeping in. It could be that he slept in Sheila's room and Sheila slept in the main room with June (for reasons already laid out). You then got the whole thing AAF and thought people were suggesting Sheila slept with Nevill - which NO ONE ever suggested.