What makes Bamber innocent?

[sami]

Presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a fair trial is a fundamental human right

in a ideal world,david,he was proven guilty in a fair trial,just because i say the silencer was not used doesnt make it fact ,its just my opinion

[gringo]

But what if they ARE guilty and it's the only way to get a conviction? I'm not saying it's ethical.

  The trouble with this approach, Jane, is that we already have a system in place to decide guilt. That it is not the ideal system is something that I think we all probably agree on. Having said that I don't think it is  improved by the fabrication of evidence against suspects.
    Who decides whether we know if someone is guilty or not? There is a long and shameful history of people "known to be guilty" who were convicted after evidence was introduced or fabricated by police officers. How can we be sure that evidence isn't just concocted against people for other reasons?
    There really is no such thing as noble cause corruption. It is just corruption.
   

[sami]

i think its each to their own,if a police officer or member of the family fabricated evidence against ian brady moors childkiller.would we be questioning the rights and wrongs of it

[Jane]

  The trouble with this approach, Jane, is that we already have a system in place to decide guilt. That it is not the ideal system is something that I think we all probably agree on. Having said that I don't think it is  improved by the fabrication of evidence against suspects.
    Who decides whether we know if someone is guilty or not? There is a long and shameful history of people "known to be guilty" who were convicted after evidence was introduced or fabricated by police officers. How can we be sure that evidence isn't just concocted against people for other reasons?
    There really is no such thing as noble cause corruption. It is just corruption.
   

Gringo, it would be a sad indictment if it had to come down to a choice between the guilty walking free and the innocent being imprisoned.

[sami]

my own opinion is ,if somebody my extended family brought up like a son ,then went on to kill them and others.and i knew it,i would be fabricating evidence

[Jane]

my own opinion is ,if somebody my extended family brought up like a son ,then went on to kill them and others.and i knew it,i would be fabricating evidence

I think we'd all be sick to the stomach to see them walk free.

[gringo]

Gringo, it would be a sad indictment if it had to come down to a choice between the guilty walking free and the innocent being imprisoned.

  Unfortunately, this is the case though, Jane. The ultimate consequence of fabricating evidence is jailing the innocent and there is a long list that demonstrates the case.
    I fail to understand how we can possibly "know" someone to be guilty if we don't have evidence against them. If evidence needs to "introduced" to prove the charges then by definition it cannot be "known" that the suspect is guilty. You need actual evidence to make that decision.
    Nobody likes to see guilty people walk free but it is a greater stain to jail the innocent especially if that is achieved through corruption, no matter how noble the cause is thought to be.

[gringo]

my own opinion is ,if somebody my extended family brought up like a son ,then went on to kill them and others.and i knew it,i would be fabricating evidence

   But how do you know it without evidence?

[sami]

   But how do you know it without evidence?

for me theres enough evidence there even without the silencer.i must remind you that adam is the one that knows the in's and out's of the silencer evidence

[lookout]

  Unfortunately, this is the case though, Jane. The ultimate consequence of fabricating evidence is jailing the innocent and there is a long list that demonstrates the case.
    I fail to understand how we can possibly "know" someone to be guilty if we don't have evidence against them. If evidence needs to "introduced" to prove the charges then by definition it cannot be "known" that the suspect is guilty. You need actual evidence to make that decision.
    Nobody likes to see guilty people walk free but it is a greater stain to jail the innocent especially if that is achieved through corruption, no matter how noble the cause is thought to be.

Well put,gringo.

[gringo]

for me theres enough evidence there even without the silencer.i must remind you that adam is the one that knows the in's and out's of the silencer evidence

  This doesn't explain why you think fabricating evidence is ok.
   If you believe that Adam is the expert on the silencer evidence on this forum then you have a lot to learn. Adam is possibly the only poster in either camp that believes the silencer evidence isn't fabricated.

[gringo]

Well put,gringo.

  I can't even believe that the point is debated, lookout. It is beyond ridiculous to argue that fabricating evidence can sometimes be alright.

[David1819]

for me theres enough evidence there even without the silencer.i must remind you that adam is the one that knows the in's and out's of the silencer evidence

This is a strawman argument, if there is enough evidence then there is no need to manufacture evidence in the first place. secondly once you realise evidence has been manufactured it proves corruption making a conviction even more unsafe

[lookout]

  I can't even believe that the point is debated, lookout. It is beyond ridiculous to argue that fabricating evidence can sometimes be alright.

 It jolly well isn't alright at all and how those who dish it out can sleep I don't know,knowing that a life hangs in the balance. I'd rat on anyone if I thought they had reneged on their statement.

[sami]

This is a strawman argument, if there is enough evidence then there is no need to manufacture evidence in the first place. secondly once you realise evidence has been manufactured it proves corruption making a conviction even more unsafe

send an email to the remaining family and tell them that,iam talking about my own opinion ,many would disagree including people in the guilty camp.we cant be 100% sure if they did or not.in my book its fine if they did.everyone to their own