What makes Bamber innocent?

[Caroline]

Even if they turned out.to be cracks, it does not prove that she hadn't died less than an hour before the photograph had been taken. This is because it only takes 15 minutes for blood to coagulate and dry once the flow of blood from its source has ceased to run. Sheila's mouth could only fill up with blood for so long and a limited amount of blood ran from that corner of her mouth. The photo was taken after 10 O'clock, which means that she had been dead for around 47 minutes, ample enough time for the blood which had been flowing from that side of her mouth to have stopped flowing, and coagulated after or within 15 minutes of its flow ending.  Considering that there is clear evidence on parts of her neck that clots of plugged blood were displaced upon two different parts of her neck, nobody can doubt that there was considerable movement of her head. The general position of the two detached plugs of blood around the upper wound, is duplicated by the same pattern around the lower wound. Sheila's head certainly lolled forward and back on at least to different occasions. This movement is not readily identified on Sheila's face, and I believe if these marks are cracks in the dried blood, it came about because of the movement of the head back and forth, after the blood which had ran from the corner of Sheila's mouth had already dried. This in itself could be evidence which supports for the fact that her body was moved after she had been shot dead...

Oh I agree that it's likely the body of Sheila was moved - but I think Jeremy moved her.

[Jane]

Air bubbles, in the blood, that's my basic  gut feeling, otherwise known as 'spit', or 'goz'...

Cracks...................as in "dried and cracking blood".

[mike tesko]

These are the facts if what we have been debating are cracks...

(1) - the photograph in question was taken by PC Bird after 10 O'clock that morning

(2) - by that stage Sheila had been shot twice, (a) once diagonally across the throat, with a weapon that was held out from the left hand side of her body, (b) and, once under the chin which ended up inside her brain, the weapon more or less held or pressed against her body with the muzzle against the underside of her chin

(3) - Cops saw nothing suspicious to alert them to the possibility that she had not killed herself

(4) - Cops saw nothing to suggest that anybody had staged her death scene

(5) - Cops were happy that with that rifle found on her body, that she could have shot herself twice with it

(6) - cops were happy that the triangular bloodstain situated near her right armpit upon her nightdress had got there whilst Sheila was laid on her back as shown in PC Birds photograph

(7) - cops were happy regarding bloodied fingermarks on the front lower right hand side of the nightdress originated from her bloodied right hand, and were not a suspicious feature

(8) - cops were happy that clotted blood in the form of two wound plugs had become detached from the upper bullet entry wound and displaced on other lower parts of her neck, indicating that after she had been shot, and after the upper wound had become sealed with clotted blood that her head had lolled forward and rested there until the wound had sealed itself again, and then lolled further forward into a different position causing the replugged wound to detach the reformed plugged. Her head had since that time, fell back into the position PC Bird had photographed her body and head in after 10am

(9) - in the position shown with Sheila laid upon her back alongside the edge of the bed the position of her mouths opening was positioned higher up from the floor than either of the two bullet wounds

(10) - as per above, the location of both wounds were lower down on the body in relation to the position of the mouth and to the floor (above the floor)

(11) - blood settles to the lowest parts of the body after death, dependant upon the posture adopted by the deceased when death occurs (unmoved)

(12) - where blood has left the body, and there is little or no further blood flow, within 15 minutes or so the blood will start to coagulate and darken in colour

(13) - where blood has left the body and there is a continuous flow of blood leaking out of the body, the edges at either side of the flow may show signs of coagulation and darkening

(14) - as soon as death occurs, the heart stops beating so it no longer pumps blood inside the body around the body

(15) - as soon as death occurs, blood starts to seep to the lowest parts of the head, neck, torso, and extremities. During this process blood may leak or run from any wound located in any part of the body which is lower at any given time to the level of blood in that corresponding part of the body

(16) - the passing of time from the moment of death will always have a bearing upon the level to which the blood inside a body has drained hydraulically, until all the blood (around 8 pints) reaches its lowest point in all parts of the body. For example, the natural blood level inside the body of a deceased person will be different inside the limbs of the body, at one hour, two hours, three hours, and so on and so forth, until the blood settles at the lowest part of the body (ground zero)

(17) - from marks present around the upper wound on Sheila's neck, somebody has tried to stem the flow of blood from that wound, but been unsuccessful, because fresh blood has flowed over the top of these marks. Cops were not concerned with this...

[Reader]

. . . the panic button got activated at precisely 3.29am

This time is what someone has told you? Is there any document that you have a copy of that gives this time or indicates that a panic button was used? Didn't Jeremy say that he didn't attempt to call Witham police station?

[Adam]

Panic button ?

Where was it supposed to go to, a police station ? It's doubtful the police are going to let members of the public have their own personal panic button leading to their police station. People have to dial 999.

If the panic button just makes a loud noise, it just creates more of a panic.

[Caroline]

These are the facts if what we have been debating are cracks...

(1) - the photograph in question was taken by PC Bird after 10 O'clock that morning

The photograph in question would have been taken with the others - it is the same picture as the one you posted.

Only, your version has had the colour and tone edited to present the blood from the wound on her neck as dried, and the blood at her mouth, and its flow also dark and dried, with cracks in the flow that were caused with the movement of the head, which lolled forward on two occasions after she had been shot and killed and the blood which ran from the right corner of her mouth stopped flowing and dried diagonally across her face, confirming that at the time this particular blood stain started to crack, it did so when the skin still showed signs of elasticity, which would not be found in the skin seven hours or more after the time of death. This is borne out by the blood leaking from the wound beneath the chin still leaking from a bullet wound at the top part of Sheila's neck after 10am, which would be 'impossible' after her being dead for seven hours or longer. Everyone knows that when death occurs that blood in the body settles at the lowest parts of the torso, the head, the neck, and the extremities, but for what you are suggesting to be true and factual, the blood in Sheila's neck must have remained topped up with blood that 'did not' settle to the lowest part of the neck despite over seven hours already having elapsed. You also choose to ignore confirmation in the police logs that Sheila's body was the female body reported to have been found downstairs in the kitchen after reference has already been made to the discovery of dads body, not once but on two separate occasions. You also choose to ignore clear facts that cops were dealing with a murder, and a suicide before 7.45am, and that cops only found three bodies upstairs by 8.10am. The purpose of keeping these contemporaneously recorded message logs constitutes clear evidence of two bodies found downstairs, and only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am. There are no radio messages past or recorded relating to how the two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs, turned into one body downstairs, four bodies upstairs. This is a significant discrepancy which cannot be overlooked on an evidential basis. According to the police message logs, there was never only one body downstairs, and there was never any mention of four bodies upstairs, it was an investigation where at the end of play, one body ended up downstairs, with the other four bodies upstairs, with no explanation from the cops how this transition occurred. They refuse to talk about the 'training exercise involving the bodies being used as props, before PC Bird (soco) eventually took photographs showing one body downstairs, and four bodies upstairs, which the raid team adopted as part of the truth, of what they found upon entry, which was far from the real truth...

(2) - by that stage Sheila had been shot twice, (a) once diagonally across the throat, with a weapon that was held out from the left hand side of her body, (b) and, once under the chin which ended up inside her brain, the weapon more or less held or pressed against her body with the muzzle against the underside of her chin

(3) - Cops saw nothing suspicious to alert them to the possibility that she had not killed herself

I thought you said they killed her? Surely they would KNOW she didn't kill herself if they did it?

Of course they knew that they killed her, but they had to 'pretend' that they hadn't, but they did. Later on, the suggestion that cops had been fooled by Jeremy was nothing but 'tosh', how could he have fooled them into thinking Sheila had taken her own life after she had killed the others, if cops were responsible for shooting her? The contents of the police message logs tell the true circumstances of what unfolded right up to 8.10am, two bodies downstairs, three upstairs. J hasn't made those 'facts' up, and neither have I. The facts are there for all to see and read. Sheila was downstairs between 7.37am and 8.10am. Cops said she had died, had committed suicide. They knew she had been shot once by that stage. If not, how could cops call her death, as a suicide? She wasn't found hanged, she hadn't cut her wrists, or taken an overdose of tablets or drugs. She had been shot. Cops knew this because one of their own shot her with a bullet from his weapon. The problem cops have got is that they called her death downstairs, when her body was downstairs, but 'not dead'. They called her presumed death at that stage, a 'suicide'. Nobody can accuse J of planting that idea into the minds of the cops inside the farmhouse at that time. He had 'no control' or input on what messages cops passed to one another, during that period between 7.37am, and 8.10am...

(4) - Cops saw nothing to suggest that anybody had staged her death scene

As above - but why would they be looking for a staged scene when Jeremy had already blind sided them?

They wouldn't, but with the benefit of hindsight and because cops 'were' involved in the circumstances of her death, I am just making the point that because cops staged her death scene as captured by PC Bird in his photographs, they knew her body in those photographs had been staged by themselves, but they were reluctant to say so for obvious reasons...

(5) - Cops were happy that with that rifle found on her body, that she could have shot herself twice with it

They hadn't done any investigating at that point or had time to review what they had found and had been blind sided by Jeremy

No, your wrong. They carried out 'informals' between 9 and 10 O'clock, without naming the officers involved, nor mention what they did with the bodies of the victims...

(6) - cops were happy that the triangular bloodstain situated near her right armpit upon her nightdress had got there whilst Sheila was laid on her back as shown in PC Birds photograph

As above

Cops pretended that glaring clues like these, amounted to nothing they needed to concern themselves with, and nobody but the cops themselves would be able to look into anything police did not believe to be suspicious. But, everything cops did to cover up the true circumstances surrounding the shooting of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen, the mistake of declaring her death by suicide downstairs, alongside dads body in the kitchen, dad who's death was accurately described as a murder. But there was nothing anybody could do to reconstruct the truth involving the presence of dad and daughters bodies being found downstairs, because the investigation was being carried out with it being a coroners court case, not a criminal one. There would hardly be any opportunity for it ever becoming a criminal matter providing that cops kept the case as one of four murders, and a suicide, where Sheila had killed the others, then took her own life...

(7) - cops were happy regarding bloodied fingermarks on the front lower right hand side of the nightdress originated from her bloodied right hand, and were not a suspicious feature

As above

They had to pretend it didn't matter...

( - cops were happy that clotted blood in the form of two wound plugs had become detached from the upper bullet entry wound and displaced on other lower parts of her neck, indicating that after she had been shot, and after the upper wound had become sealed with clotted blood that her head had lolled forward and rested there until the wound had sealed itself again, and then lolled further forward into a different position causing the replugged wound to detach the reformed plugged. Her head had since that time, fell back into the position PC Bird had photographed her body and head in after 10am

They didn't have time to analyse any of that.

They didn't need much time to see what all of us can see at first glance. Truth was, that cops pretended such detail amounted to nothing they should concern themselves with, otherwise they could not proceed with the case through the coroners court system, as 'four murders, and a suicide'...

(9) - in the position shown with Sheila laid upon her back alongside the edge of the bed the position of her mouths opening was positioned higher up from the floor than either of the two bullet wounds

Jeremy moved her

He couldn't have moved her body at all inside the bedroom. How could he have, with cops already being on record as stating that her body being downstairs in the kitchen at 7.37am, onward along with dads body. It's nonsense to suggest that although you accept Sheila's body was moved and staged, that it wasn't the cops who had been responsible for moving and staging her body, but rather Jeremy had been. Sadly, the contents of the police message log contents between 7.37 and 8.10am, tell a completely different account than the one you appear to be championing here...
(10) - as per above, the location of both wounds were lower down on the body in relation to the position of the mouth and to the floor (above the floor)

As above

(11) - blood settles to the lowest parts of the body after death, dependant upon the posture adopted by the deceased when death occurs (unmoved)

On the picture I posted you can see that LM is already present

Sheila's neck could not possibly have still been filled up with blood to its 'highest point' from the floor at the bottom of her neck, after over seven hours if she had been dead, long before cops state 'her body' was present downstairs in the kitchen from 7.37am, onward...

(12) - where blood has left the body, and there is little or no further blood flow, within 15 minutes or so the blood will start to coagulate and darken in colour

The blood is dry and cracking, LM is present - she has been dead for some time

the neck could 'not be still full to the top with fresh blood', more than seven hours 'after' her death, and still be running from the fatal wound at the highest point of her neck from the bedroom floor after 10 O'Clock. What you are advocating is impossible, it could not happen...

(13) - where blood has left the body and there is a continuous flow of blood leaking out of the body, the edges at either side of the flow may show signs of coagulation and darkening

(14) - as soon as death occurs, the heart stops beating so it no longer pumps blood inside the body around the body

(15) - as soon as death occurs, blood starts to seep to the lowest parts of the head, neck, torso, and extremities. During this process blood may leak or run from any wound located in any part of the body which is lower at any given time to the level of blood in that corresponding part of the body

And you can see that this has happened my the dark patches on Sheila's face.

Her neck would not still be topped up and full of blood if she had been laid in that position for seven hours or more, and still be leaking fresh blood from the two wounds on the highest part of her neck. Any blood inside her neck would have long since settled at its lowest point, which in her case was the back of her neck closest to the bedroom floor. The 'fact', and it is an immense factor, that Sheila is still leaking fresh looking blood from wounds at the highest part of her neck in relation to the bedroom floor, it is an 'impossibity' for J to have had anything whatsoever to do with staging her body there in that position on the bedroom floor in possession of a rifle which from 7.15am until at least just prior to 9.13am was always propped up against the bedroom window. In addition to this, there is unrefuted evidence that there were two bodies present downstairs in the kitchen between 7.37 and 8.10am. No cop has yet come forward to deny that the contents of the relevant police message log are inaccurate and not true. Raid team members were 'told' by senior officers at the debrief held at Witham later that same day, to make their notes up in a certain way, whereas, the contents of the police message logs were recorded contemporaneous and spontaneously. I know which version is the correct version, and its not the cop witness statements, and that's the truth. The real problem with the contents of the various cop statements relating to how in them they describe where each of the bodies of the five victims were found initially, is that the cops were 'told' to make their notes up in a certain way, not by J, but by senior cops at the debrief. Senior cops telling lower ranked cops to 'make sure' that they got the position of the bodies in keeping where PC Bird had photographed them all. It follows that where PC Bird photographed the victims bodies after 10 am, was 'not' the actual position the bodies were reportedly found in upon first entry into each and every room in the farmhouse between 7.37and 8.10am. The location of the body of Sheila became problematic to cops writing up their notes in the way senior officers told them to do, because her body had been present downstairs in the kitchen upon first entry there at around 7.37am until 8.10am, and by the time PC Bird had got around to photographing Sheila on the bedroom floor with the rifle that was originally resting against the bedroom window from 7.15am, all the way through until shortly before 9.13am, cops couldn't write up their notes accurately because senior officers had told them all to make up their notes including where the bodies had been found by referring to the positions of the bodies, as photographed, which in Sheila's case was laid on the bedroom floor with the rifle from the bedroom window now under her control and in her possession on the bedroom floor by the edge of the bed.

(16) - the passing of time from the moment of death will always have a bearing upon the level to which the blood inside a body has drained hydraulically, until all the blood (around 8 pints) reaches its lowest point in all parts of the body. For example, the natural blood level inside the body of a deceased person will be different inside the limbs of the body, at one hour, two hours, three hours, and so on and so forth, until the blood settles at the lowest part of the body (ground zero)

(17) - from marks present around the upper wound on Sheila's neck, somebody has tried to stem the flow of blood from that wound, but been unsuccessful, because fresh blood has flowed over the top of these marks. Cops were not concerned with this...

They didn't have time to analyse it - the investigation comes later when they have gathered the evidence. When they did that, they realised they had been hood winked by one Jeremy Bamber.

The marks I am referring to, were fundamental clues that a school kid would notice just by looking at the body long before any investigation. Since, we have had it rammed down our throats for over 30 years that Sheila's hands were 'spotlessly clean'. Anybody seeing those bloodied marks around the fatal wound on her neck would instantly be questioning how she could have held the fingers of her right hand there on that part of her neck and her hands end up back on the gun near the trigger mechanism? Cops did not show any interest in this feature, because cops were responsible for making those marks. But they had to pretend that they hadn't. Cops shot an 'unarmed' Sheila downstairs in the kitchen after she met them there (I believe) intent on surrendering. A fact made clear by the act of her placing the rifle at the bedroom window at 7.15am, then going downstairs to 'give herself up'. Cops shot and killed Sheila who at both times she got shot was 'unarmed'. She certainly could not have shot herself twice with use of the anshuzt rifle and had been found with that gun upon her body, because as I keep having to remind everybody, that rifle was resting at the bedroom window from 7.15am, onward, until just prior to 9.13am, so cops could not have found Sheila with the rifle in her possession on the bedroom floor at first entry into the main bedroom. It would have been impossible for that to have happened for all the reasons given J fooled nobody into thinking his sisters body would be found on the bedroom floor with the rifle he had shot her with, because the said rifle was at the bedroom window when cops went in. With this in mind, not only was it impossible for J to have staged his sisters body with the gun from the bedroom window, but what fool would murder his sister, stage her death on the bedroom floor near the edge of the bed, but leave the rifle at the bedroom window? It is only when you realise that the anshuzt rifle did not get placed at the bedroom window until 7.15am, that it becomes clear who was responsible for the deaths of the other four victims, and that that person was Sheila. What also becomes crystal clear is that J did not shoot his sister, kill her, and stage her body with the gun from the bedroom window. Now, which part don't you understand?

[mike tesko]

This time is what someone has told you? Is there any document that you have a copy of that gives this time or indicates that a panic button was used? Didn't Jeremy say that he didn't attempt to call Witham police station?

J told me that he tried to call Witham police station before he made the call to Julie Mugford at 3.30am, but he got no response, and that he called Chelmsford police station after he some to Julie...

I kept notes of everything he told me, and I have letters addressed to me from him where he mentions these facts. If he's saying something g different now then I'd like to hear about it, because why would he change his mind about something that did happen?

[Steve_uk]

J told me that he tried to call With am police station before he made the call to Julie Mugford at 3.30am, but he got no response, and that he called Chelmsford police station after he some to Julie...

I kept notes of everything he told me, and I have letters addressed to me from him where he mentions these facts. If he's saying something g different now then I'd like to hear about it, because why would he change his mind about something that did happen?

This was denied by Police.

Mike you're asking us to believe:

1) Dozens of Police lied that morning in an attempt to cover up their shooting of Sheila in error.

2) Jeremy received a telephone call from his father asking him to come to the Farm in the middle of the night because Sheila had run amok with a gun.

3) Nevill telephoned Police to summon help, but again Police are concealing this information.

4) Relatives took possession of the Farm post-murders, used a dropper to impregnate a silencer with Sheila's blood, hid it in the den and scratched the kitchen mantelpiece.

5) Jeremy loved his parents and had no plans to do away with them: Julie's testimony is therefore pure fabrication.

6) That 30 years have passed without one informant having the decency to come forward and exculpate Jeremy in 1-5.

[Caroline]

This was denied by Police.

Mike you're asking us to believe:

1) Dozens of Police lied that morning in an attempt to cover up their shooting of Sheila in error.

2) Jeremy received a telephone call from his father asking him to come to the Farm in the middle of the night because Sheila had run amok with a gun.

3) Nevill telephoned Police to summon help, but again Police are concealing this information.

4) Relatives took possession of the Farm post-murders, used a dropper to impregnate a silencer with Sheila's blood, hid it in the den and scratched the kitchen mantelpiece.

5) Jeremy loved his parents and had no plans to do away with them: Julie's testimony is therefore pure fabrication.

6) That 30 years have passed without one informant having the decency to come forward and exculpate Jeremy in 1-5.

In a nutshell, basically that's what it would mean for Jeremy to be innocent. The cast involved would be massive in order to maintain 'the secret' and also many police officers would have independently decided to lie, withhold information and frame Jeremy even before the scene was discovered. It would be too far fetched even for a work of fiction and we're being asked to believe it actually happened.

[John]

In a nutshell, basically that's what it would mean for Jeremy to be innocent. The cast involved would be massive in order to maintain 'the secret' and also many police officers would have independently decided to lie, withhold information and frame Jeremy even before the scene was discovered. It would be too far fetched even for a work of fiction and we're being asked to believe it actually happened.

I totally agree Caroline the whole idea of it is preposterous.

[John]

J told me that he tried to call Witham police station before he made the call to Julie Mugford at 3.30am, but he got no response, and that he called Chelmsford police station after he some to Julie...

I kept notes of everything he told me, and I have letters addressed to me from him where he mentions these facts. If he's saying something g different now then I'd like to hear about it, because why would he change his mind about something that did happen?

Its very simple really, he made up so much nonsense he forgot who he told what to.

[mike tesko]

In a nutshell, basically that's what it would mean for Jeremy to be innocent. The cast involved would be massive in order to maintain 'the secret' and also many police officers would have independently decided to lie, withhold information and frame Jeremy even before the scene was discovered. It would be too far fetched even for a work of fiction and we're being asked to believe it actually happened.

The facts now known tell a different story to the one you are portraying...

If you ignore the 'facts' you are doomed into believing something which cannot possibly be true. Furthermore, hitting me with the rhetoric that for the truth to be the truth it would have to involve all these cops and them cops rubbish. Look at all the 'major miscarriages of justice', and think back to people like you making similar claims back then, which turned out to be false. This is not a case where I or others are just saying there has been 'dishonesty' on the part of cops, the cops are 'showing us all that what they got up to was dishonest', they are 'damaging their own integrity'. Let me remind you what 'senior officers' told the raid team at the end of the 'debrief held at Witham on evening of 7th August 1985', they told lesser ranked cops to 'make sure they wrote their notes up, along the lines of where the bodies had been photographed', and 'that what they were dealing with' was 'four murders, and a suicide'...

[mike tesko]

Its very simple really, he made up so much nonsense he forgot who he told what to.

No, he didn't. J is not as intelligent or tactful as a lot of different people from different backgrounds think he is...

[mike tesko]

I totally agree Caroline the whole idea of it is preposterous.

Yes, cops lied and falsified evidence, to cover up their own mistakes and misgivings. They made significant errors inside the farmhouse, and afterwards...

[John]

No, he didn't. J is not as intelligent or tactful as a lot of different people from different backgrounds think he is...

Yes he did, he forgot who he called first very early on.