Questions about the bible :

[Jane]

In my view she didn't. For various reasons which I have mentioned. Some in post 267. Not to support my own view of guilt, as it's just as damaging to Bamber if she did read it. 

David answered my thread question with a definitive 'yes', in red. Stating it as a fact but did not provide a source. He now is suggesting it fell open onto Sheila's blood and somehow got covered in blood.

Lookout today said she did not read the bible and stated it as a fact rather than an opinion.  But has not provided a source.

We can ONLY make suggestions. As no one can vouch for what happened there can be no source. If David had a rethink it's all to the good. His suggestion is sound.

[David1819]

I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.

I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.

Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end 

[Adam]

We can ONLY make suggestions. As no one can vouch for what happened there can be no source. If David had a rethink it's all to the good. His suggestion is sound.

No one can vouch for what happened. However there could be sources for whether she read it before the massacre.

I don't know why David would answer 'yes' in red ink, if he had no source. He must have panicked after seeing the thread questions and instantly answered in a way that defended Bamber. None of his other answers had a source, 😇except one. Although I did request them.

In my view Bamber planted the bible. Rather than it amazingly falling open, next to Sheila,  onto her blood and covering itself in blood.

[David1819]

No one can vouch for what happened. However there could be sources for whether she read it before the massacre.

I don't know why David would answer 'yes' in red ink, if he had no source. He must have panicked after seeing the thread questions and instantly answered in a way that defended Bamber.

In my view Bamber planted the bible. Rather than it amazingly falling open,  onto Sheila's blood and covering itself in blood.

That's what would happen if the bible was left on the bedside table, partially off the corner. The idea of Neville leaving a bible by his bedside table is nothing odd if you ask me. 

[Jane]

I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.

I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.

Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end

Perhaps you could post the letter? It's possible that because Colin was angry when he wrote the letter he may have made some exaggerations OR perhaps Sheila had for her own "Rescue me" agenda?

It's possible that at some point June managed to persuade Sheila to study the bible with her but I would have thought it would have been sporadic as opposed to regular?

Over time I've picked up that Sheila's views of religion may only have materialized when she was ill. A not uncommon feature with PS.

[Caroline]

I have found Colin mentioning Shelia's Religious beliefs in a letter he wrote to Neville. That's good enough for me.

I have read several times that Shelia began studying the bible with June at one time tho I cannot remember were.

Iv anyone wants to know more about Shelias interest in religion you would probably find more good sources or answers in either Dr Furgusons statements, Barbra Wilsons statements or colins book rainbows end

It was never lost nor was it sent.

Cannot remember where - doesn't hold water David.

[David1819]

It was never lost nor was it sent.

Cannot remember where - doesn't hold water David.

I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote

"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"

"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"

 

[Jane]

I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote

"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"

"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"

I don't doubt, that at SOME time, Dr Ferguson said those words of both June and Sheila. However, they should be put into context. Dr Ferguson only saw these women when they were ill.

God featured hugely in June's life. None of her friends would contradict this fact. God was her guiding force and as such, in times of stress, it was to Him she turned -some might hit the bottle, chain smoke, or use food in varying degrees. I suspect that part of the problem, for June, was that when she became stressed/ill to the point where she couldn't function, she felt she'd let God down, rather than He had let her down. What is absolutely certain is that God was as big a part of June's life whether she was ill or well.

You haven't made clear, during which stay in hospital, the words you quote were said of Sheila, but "................she had found God and felt relaxed" certainly doesn't fit the Sheila described by one and all during the last two weeks of her life. If we go back to her last stay in hospital, she was very eager to get out because she didn't want her biological mother to see her there. I have no hesitation in believing that Sheila would have tried "God" as a way of placating June, but other than during her breakdowns, I really don't think she ever developed the kind of "relationship" with Him that June had.

[lookout]

What I'm trying to say is that the Bible had been forced upon Sheila from a very early start in her life when her mother was trying to teach morals and such like and more or less how one should be guided by the teachings of it. Sheila had been vulnerable enough to take part of it in particularly towards the end of her life when things had got so bad in her life that her mind struggled with the thought of separating good from evil.
If Sheila had been in a household where no Bibles existed,then she'd have been an entirely different person. There'd been no sign of any Bibles where she'd lived and if it had been the case that she too had been religious minded,then there'd have been a Bible or two at her apartment. All Sheila was doing was repeating what her mother had told her and if she hadn't have died when she did,she'd have been an utter mess suffering what her mother did and having to withstand years of therapy and counselling for religious psychosis which is harder to treat within the mental health programme.

[Caroline]

I'm afraid it does, specially when there are multiple sources to corroborate it. Such as Dr Fergusons statements I quote

"Both June and Shelia suffered delusional states of religion"

"She said he had some religious feelings - she had found God and felt relaxed"

I'm afraid it doesn't - if it doesn't stand for Lookout, it doesn't stand for you either.

[Caroline]

I don't doubt, that at SOME time, Dr Ferguson said those words of both June and Sheila. However, they should be put into context. Dr Ferguson only saw these women when they were ill.

God featured hugely in June's life. None of her friends would contradict this fact. God was her guiding force and as such, in times of stress, it was to Him she turned -some might hit the bottle, chain smoke, or use food in varying degrees. I suspect that part of the problem, for June, was that when she became stressed/ill to the point where she couldn't function, she felt she'd let God down, rather than He had let her down. What is absolutely certain is that God was as big a part of June's life whether she was ill or well.

You haven't made clear, during which stay in hospital, the words you quote were said of Sheila, but "................she had found God and felt relaxed" certainly doesn't fit the Sheila described by one and all during the last two weeks of her life. If we go back to her last stay in hospital, she was very eager to get out because she didn't want her biological mother to see her there. I have no hesitation in believing that Sheila would have tried "God" as a way of placating June, but other than during her breakdowns, I really don't think she ever developed the kind of "relationship" with Him that June had.

If all this depends on what someone said (at some point) - Jeremy said he wanted to kill his parents frequently throughout the year preceding their deaths - they ended up dead.

[Jane]

What I'm trying to say is that the Bible had been forced upon Sheila from a very early start in her life when her mother was trying to teach morals and such like and more or less how one should be guided by the teachings of it. Sheila had been vulnerable enough to take part of it in particularly towards the end of her life when things had got so bad in her life that her mind struggled with the thought of separating good from evil.
If Sheila had been in a household where no Bibles existed,then she'd have been an entirely different person. There'd been no sign of any Bibles where she'd lived and if it had been the case that she too had been religious minded,then there'd have been a Bible or two at her apartment. All Sheila was doing was repeating what her mother had told her and if she hadn't have died when she did,she'd have been an utter mess suffering what her mother did and having to withstand years of therapy and counselling for religious psychosis which is harder to treat within the mental health programme.

I agree with much of what you say, however, there is nothing to indicate Sheila had a difficult relationship with God, OTHER than when she was ill. We have documented proof that she was ill on two occasions. We can't presume to reach conclusions on anything other than that.

[Jane]

Ha! What kind of counter argument is that? I can sense your desperation 

Your using xxxxxxx xx x xxxxxxxxx? I almost fell out my chair!

Sorry Caroline but I have to issue you one a ricky facepalm for that

You said "I have read several times that Sheila had begun studying the Bible with June..............but I can't remember where." Caroline is PERFECTLY correct in saying that such a statement doesn't hold water coming from you, any more than it's a water container when it's delivered by Lookout. No one is denying that what you say MAY be true, whilst there remains no documentation and whilst your memory is vague, it can't be assumed to be.

[guest2181]

Ha! What kind of counter argument is that? I can sense your desperation 

Your using xxxxxxx xx x xxxxxxxxx? I almost fell out my chair!

I don't think you should be laughing at Caroline for 'you' missing the point. 

[David1819]

You said "I have read several times that Sheila had begun studying the Bible with June..............but I can't remember where." Caroline is PERFECTLY correct in saying that such a statement doesn't hold water coming from you, any more than it's a water container when it's delivered by Lookout. No one is denying that what you say MAY be true, whilst there remains no documentation and whilst your memory is vague, it can't be assumed to be.

What I say IS true. There remains documentation on this very forum for all to see. If quoting in written text is not convincing enough for you. Below I have attached the relevant parts of Dr Ferguson's statements to Essex police one is from the 8th of August the other is from the 18th September 1985. Its not coming from me is since I am and quoting directing from Dr Ferguson its his words not mine.

Happy now?