The rifle at the upstairs window Conundrum - The Bamber Alibi, revisted...

[mike tesko]

What is absolutely clear, is that by 'the time' the rifle in photograph No. 23 was taken, it had already been used to kill Sheila Caffell during 'a gauging exercise' conducted after 9am, and put there at the main bedroom window. Then, brought back to her body afterwards, planted upon it and then PC Bird took photographs 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, showing the rifle on Sheila's body...

This is the actual sequence of the key 9 photographs were taken - 23, then 26, then 27, then 28, then 29, then 30, then 31, then 32 and then 33...

[mike tesko]

I am trying to reconstruct the movement of the rifle, from whichever window Jeapes saw it at around 7.15am? That sighting has to be treated as a starting point of the gun (the weapon police claim fired both bullets into Sheila Caffells neck). It was definitely 'not' used to inflict the first shot across her neck, but certainly used to inflict the fatal shot under her chin. This means that at some stage, the rifle was brought from that window to her body. This did not happen until after PS Adams left the bedroom at around 9am, at a time when he says there was no rifle at all present upon Sheila's body...

At around this stage, a training exercise got underway (familiars) which involved someone bringing the rifle from the window to her body to see if she could have used it on the other four victims. At this time Sheila's right hand fingers were being manipulated against the trigger mechanism, and upon trying to identify it as being capable of activating the trigger, it discharged the fatal round still loaded in the gun up through her chin, mouth and deposited itself in her brain. No sooner did this happen, than someone removed the rifle from her body and stood it against the main bedroom window as per photograph No. 23. This took place at around 9.13am, and it remained there at the bedroom window, until someone brought it back to Sheila's body after 10.13am, when it was positioned back upon Sheila Caffells body and PC Bird took photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33. After this, Ron Cook himself removed the rifle from Sheila's body and replaced it against the main bedroom window, but not as shown in photo' 23...

[sami]

I am trying to reconstruct the movement of the rifle, from whichever window Jeapes saw it at around 7.15am? That sighting has to be treated as a starting point of the gun (the weapon police claim fired both bullets into Sheila Caffells neck). It was definitely 'not' used to inflict the first shot across her neck, but certainly used to inflict the fatal shot under her chin. This means that at some stage, the rifle was brought from that window to her body. This did not happen until after PS Adams left the bedroom at around 9am, at a time when he says there was no rifle at all present upon Sheila's body...

At around this stage, a training exercise got underway (familiars) which involved someone bringing the rifle from the window to her body to see if she could have used it on the other four victims. At this time Sheila's right hand fingers were being manipulated against the trigger mechanism, and upon trying to identify it as being capable of activating the trigger, it discharged the fatal round still loaded in the gun up through her chin, mouth and deposited itself in her brain. No sooner did this happen, than someone removed the rifle from her body and stood it against the main bedroom window as per photograph No. 23. This took place at around 9.13am, and it remained there at the bedroom window, until someone brought it back to Sheila's body after 10.13am, when it was positioned back upon Sheila Caffells body and PC Bird took photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33. After this, Ron Cook himself removed the rifle from Sheila's body and replaced it against the main bedroom window, but not as shown in photo' 23...

mike wpc jeapes  said in her statement she  saw what 'appeared' to be a rifle.it is not proven that it was a rifle also no one else mentions it.how by placing the rifle on the body would they be able to see if she killed the other four.pc delgado says on seeing sheila.'she had injures to neck and chin and that was between 7.30.and 8am.so could police shoot her sometime after 9am as you said above.

[sami]

does anybody know how high off the ground nevill's bedroom window is.

[mike tesko]

mike wpc jeapes  said in her statement she  saw what 'appeared' to be a rifle. it was the rifle, which triggered the raid team to make their way to the rear farmhouse door...it is not proven that it was a rifle it was definitely the rifle, nothing else at that window she could have mistaken it for...also no one else mentions it. you don't really know that...how by placing the rifle on the body would they be able to see if she killed the other four. Simply be checking to see that she could reach the trigger and activate it...pc delgado says on seeing sheila.'she had injures to neck and chin and that was between 7.30.and 8am. all the firearm officers were told to write up their notes, as per the position of the bodies shown in the photographs, as though what they were dealing with was a case of four murders and a suicide. The thing is, the photographs of Sheila had been taken showing the gun on the body after it had already been photographed resting near the main bedroom windowso could police shoot her sometime after 9am easy, they brought the rifle to her body and mishandled the situation at 9.13am, they shot Sheila, killed her, no doubt whatsoever about it ...as you said above. Easy...

[sami]

sounds reasonable.do you know how high off the ground nevills bedroom window is mike .please

[mike tesko]

sounds reasonable.do you know how high off the ground nevills bedroom window is mike .please

Not specifically, no...

However, in response to any suggestion that WPC Jeapes could not possibly see any rifle  at the main bedroom window from her vantage point at the corner of White / Red, through the scope of her police weapon, I would disagree. I shall tell you why. Since, let's just say the rifle she says she saw was in a similar position as that shown of the same rifle in photograph 23 (the position of the rifle in photograph 23 did not get put there until after 9.13am, when police shot her when routine 'familiars' went wrong). If Jeapes was stood underneath the main bedroom window at the corner of 'white / red' she would not be able to see any rifle resting in a similar position inside the main bedroom as shown in photograph No. 23 (which I must say was not put there until after 9.13am, and so 'that' photograph cannot be the rifle Jeapes saw, albeit, technically speaking 'the' rifle could have been in a similar position previous to that). You would have to move away from the corner base of White / Red, in stages, until the correct angle was achieved whereby you could see above the level of the windowsil into the room beyond. Once that point is achied, you can measure the distance from the wall at the corner of white / red to 'that' point where it becomes possible to view the barrel of the rifle ( basically by adopting 'Pythagoras theory') at the main bedroom window. Anyone who says somebody like Jeapes who was using the scope of her police weapon would not have been able to see any gun resting against or near the side of the window from her vantage point outside in the grounds of the farmhouse do not know what they are talking about. Since by applying the principles of 'Pythagarous theorum', it becomes possible to confirm that 'I am right', in this instance...

[mike tesko]

WPC Julia Jeapes sees barrel of rifle (using the scope of her weapon) at first floor window, from her vantage point, covering the corner of White / Red

07.15 am- Rifle at 'a' window (box room window, versus, main bedroom window, scenario)

Members of raid team are deployed to enter the farmhouse, after mention made of the sighting of gun near upstairs window

Officers take part in 'familiars' with bodies of victims still insitu. SOCO are prevented from accessing the scene until after the training exercise is completed...

09.13 am - Rifle brought to Sheila's body, from window, for 'gauging' purposes, Sheila killed by bullet discharged from rifle, 'it' was removed, and her body was put into recovery position

SOCO, Cook, Bird, Hammersley and Davidson, take control of crime scene, to take photographs and gather exhibits, in the immediate aftermath of the police training exercise that had just finished involving movement of furniture, exhibits and the bodies of the three adult victims

10.13 am - Rifle at 'main bedroom window' (photograph No. 23 taken)

At this stage Sheila's body was on the floor, in the recovery position, without any weapon whatsoever upon it, or next to it. Then, her body was rolled onto its back in readiness for the rifle (as shown in photograph No. 23) to be brought from the main bedroom window, and positioned upon her body, and only then photographed, thus producing a false set of photographs which would supposedly show how Sheila's body had been found on the very first occasion police came into contact with her, but this was a deliberate lie. Police staged Shgeila's death scene, to framne her for her own suicide by preparing the rifle in her possession, photographing what they themselves had done, and then in the first instance, using those images to support the case that Sheilka had killed the other four victims, before taking her own life (inquest proceedings), and then later, using the very same photographs to allege that this was evidence showing how Jeremy Bamber himself had staged his sisters death scene, after he had allegedly killed everyone including his sister, to fool police into thinking Sheila had taken her own life...

10.27 am - Rifle poisitioned on Sheila's body, then photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33 were taken

Rifle removed from body by Cook and replaced at bedroom window, where it had been taken from previously to the body ( not photographed on this occasion)...[/list]

[lemonhead]

I am trying to reconstruct the movement of the rifle, from whichever window Jeapes saw it at around 7.15am? That sighting has to be treated as a starting point of the gun (the weapon police claim fired both bullets into Sheila Caffells neck). It was definitely 'not' used to inflict the first shot across her neck, but certainly used to inflict the fatal shot under her chin. This means that at some stage, the rifle was brought from that window to her body. This did not happen until after PS Adams left the bedroom at around 9am, at a time when he says there was no rifle at all present upon Sheila's body...

At around this stage, a training exercise got underway (familiars) which involved someone bringing the rifle from the window to her body to see if she could have used it on the other four victims. At this time Sheila's right hand fingers were being manipulated against the trigger mechanism, and upon trying to identify it as being capable of activating the trigger, it discharged the fatal round still loaded in the gun up through her chin, mouth and deposited itself in her brain. No sooner did this happen, than someone removed the rifle from her body and stood it against the main bedroom window as per photograph No. 23. This took place at around 9.13am, and it remained there at the bedroom window, until someone brought it back to Sheila's body after 10.13am, when it was positioned back upon Sheila Caffells body and PC Bird took photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33. After this, Ron Cook himself removed the rifle from Sheila's body and replaced it against the main bedroom window, but not as shown in photo' 23...

The movement was already reconstructed at trial.  Someone posted some of that trial testimony earlier in this thread.  The rifle used in the killings was seen on Sheila by the raid team.  It was still there when the police brass did their walks through. It was still there when crime scene police entered. After being photographed on Sheila the crime scene police had it moved to near the bedroom window and photos taken from the stairs captured it near the bedroom window.  Alleging they all lied is a wasted endeavour because instead of helping Jeremy it contradicts the defence claims that Sheila committed suicide.  The police convinced of Jeremy's guilt and prosecutors would have been well chuffed if the gun that killed Sheila had been found too far away from her body for her to have committed suicide. 

[sami]

[mike are you saying sheila was alive from 7.45 to 9.15am.if yes why would the police not call an ambulance.it is immposible that no police man checked to see if sheila was alive and than started a training exicise while she was alive .why did taff jones not notice she was alive .he spent several minutes looking at sheila he would have noticed signs of life.and so would 15 other officers .iam sorry but its impossible

[sami]

WPC Julia Jeapes sees barrel of rifle (using the scope of her weapon) at first floor window, from her vantage point, covering the corner of White / Red

07.15 am- Rifle at 'a' window (box room window, versus, main bedroom window, scenario)

Members of raid team are deployed to enter the farmhouse, after mention made of the sighting of gun near upstairs window

Officers take part in 'familiars' with bodies of victims still insitu. SOCO are prevented from accessing the scene until after the training exercise is completed...

09.13 am - Rifle brought to Sheila's body, from window, for 'gauging' purposes, Sheila killed by bullet discharged from rifle, 'it' was removed, and her body was put into recovery position

SOCO, Cook, Bird, Hammersley and Davidson, take control of crime scene, to take photographs and gather exhibits, in the immediate aftermath of the police training exercise that had just finished involving movement of furniture, exhibits and the bodies of the three adult victims

10.13 am - Rifle at 'main bedroom window' (photograph No. 23 taken)

At this stage Sheila's body was on the floor, in the recovery position, without any weapon whatsoever upon it, or next to it. Then, her body was rolled onto its back in readiness for the rifle (as shown in photograph No. 23) to be brought from the main bedroom window, and positioned upon her body, and only then photographed, thus producing a false set of photographs which would supposedly show how Sheila's body had been found on the very first occasion police came into contact with her, but this was a deliberate lie. Police staged Shgeila's death scene, to framne her for her own suicide by preparing the rifle in her possession, photographing what they themselves had done, and then in the first instance, using those images to support the case that Sheilka had killed the other four victims, before taking her own life (inquest proceedings), and then later, using the very same photographs to allege that this was evidence showing how Jeremy Bamber himself had staged his sisters death scene, after he had allegedly killed everyone including his sister, to fool police into thinking Sheila had taken her own life...

10.27 am - Rifle poisitioned on Sheila's body, then photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33 were taken

Rifle removed from body by Cook and replaced at bedroom window, where it had been taken from previously to the body ( not photographed on this occasion)...[/list]

how can you prove there was a training exicise .also which officers were involved in the cover up.

[mike tesko]

The movement was already reconstructed at trial.  You were banned, why are you persisting in breaching forum rules. If you do not give a truthful answer, I will ban you again. However, if for once in your life you admit to your deception and promise on the open forum not to carry out personal attacks against any other member, including myself, I may consider reinstating your membership under your original User name...Someone posted some of that trial testimony earlier in this thread.  The rifle used in the killings was seen on Sheila by the raid team.  It was still there when the police brass did their walks through. It was still there when crime scene police entered. After being photographed on Sheila the crime scene police had it moved to near the bedroom window and photos taken from the stairs captured it near the bedroom window.  Alleging they all lied is a wasted endeavour because instead of helping Jeremy it contradicts the defence claims that Sheila committed suicide.  The police convinced of Jeremy's guilt and prosecutors would have been well chuffed if the gun that killed Sheila had been found too far away from her body for her to have committed suicide.

[mike tesko]

[mike are you saying sheila was alive from 7.45 to 9.15am. Deeply unconscious, but certain barely alive, yes. Hers was the 'dead female body' found in the kitchen, at 7.37am, after 'a male body' had already been found.if yes why would the police not call an ambulance. Woodcock and the others believed she had been killed during the struggle he had with Sheila, as Woodcock came around the outside edge of the opening internal kitchen door. Sheila got shot according to the actual contents of his report because (he says) 'she pulled the muzzle of his weapon which was fitted with a suppressor, silencer, sound moderator, call it whatever you want to, into her own neck, which left a mark bearing the same 1" diameter from the silencer upon her neck, around the bullet entry hole, which was caused because during that struggle, Woodcocks weapon came into direct contact with the aga fireplace surround and marked it. When Sheila collapsed he thought she was dead. Other officers back at the control room who were at that stage eavesdropping this activity, overheard the shouting and disturbance caused by Woodcocks struggle with Sheila, and 'interpreted what they heard, as Sheila 'having committed suicide'. This was the source from which 'Linda' in the control room relied upon when at 7.45am she contacted (SOCO) DS Davidson at his home address, to request him ' to come into the office, because police were dealing with an incident at whf, involving A MURDER, and A SUICIDE'. let us 'not forget', that although on the first page of Woodcocks witness statement, it clearly states for all and everyone to see, that it states, ' I make this statement consisting of 15 pages', but that there is only 10 pages in his disclosed witness statement. A total of 5 pages of evidence is ' missing'. In addition, a completely 'different typewriter' has been used in the body of 'that' 10 page version of his 15 page witness statement', to describe, 'Woodcocks entry into the kitchen'. It is my argument, that this 'added'  retyped page 'content' has been introduced, to cover up the detail of what really did happen, once Woodcock, came around the edge of 'that' internal door, situated between the back door entrance hall and the main kitchen. 'Two' bodies found upon entry, 'not one mistaken for two bodies'. If you don't understand what I'm saying there is no possibility of me answering any further questions from you about this matter. This is because I would be wasting my time, putting across the real circumstance which unfolded.,.it is immposible that no police man checked to see if sheila was alive Listen up, and listen up good. 'I do not suffer fools, gladly'. I wish the lot of you would stop trying to take the piss, you are all full of shit, and do not know what you are talking aboutand than started a training exicise while she was alive . They thought they had killed her. Also, the rifle was brought from which ever window to her body, to see whether or not it was possible for Sheila to have used the rifle (which they had brought from whichever window to her body) to shoot and kill each of the other four victims - they established during these 'familiars', that she could have (and did) shoot and kill the others. Unfortunately, police did shoot and kill Sheila when they arranged the fingers of her right hand upon, against, and around the trigger mechanism, BANG!!!, she was shot under the chin. She did not kill herself, they shot and killed her, at around 9.13am. Once the shot was fired by use of Woodcocks weapon, 'it' was moved to the side of the ' main bedroom window', where it was subsequently photographed at 10.13am...why did taff jones not notice she was alive .he spent several minutes looking at sheila he would have noticed signs of life.and so would 15 other officers .iam sorry but its impossible it was not as easy as 'that', she was deeply unconscious after exerting herself recovering from the 'initial shot across her throat' when PS Woodcock shot her during the initial struggle as he entered the kitchen. After this she eventually regained consciousness, and made her way to the upstairs main bedroom. Where she initially collapsed upon the bed. Her body was on 'the far side of the bed', from as early as 8.44am, as described by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and Police Inspector, 'Bob Miller'. Some time later the police removed her body from the bed and positioned it on the bedroom floor at which stage they brought the 'anshuzt rifle from the main bedroom window, and they 'planted it' on Sheila's body. This took place after 10.13am. The rifle at the main bedroom window, as photographed there, at 10.13am, crime scene photograph No. 23 was taken then. It was photographed leaning close to the main bedroom window (23) before it was eventually taken from 'that' window and put onto Sheila's body. Once police moved the rifle from the main bedroom window (23) onto her body, PC Bird took photographs, numbered, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33, to prove the gun was 'on the body'. Surely, you can work the rest out yourself...

[mike tesko]

Detective Inspector Cook, and Police Constable Bird, both gave false testimony regarding the order with which photographs, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 23 had allegedly been taken. The truth is that the 'photograph No. 23' was taken before the others, 'not' the other way around. Cook and Bird, are therefore Criminals who should both have been prosecuted, for offences of 'perverting the course of justice', and 'Conspiracy'...

[mike tesko]

I would now like to address the question of firearm officers stating that they found Sheila's body, on the bedroom floor, with the rifle on her body?

It is a blatent lie, by each and everyone of them. The contents of their witness statements do not correspond to the contents of the police message log contents...