Author Topic: reasonable doubt  (Read 32109 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 01:46:PM »
Oh dear,a LOT of people look " as guilty as sin ",and if left to ME to imprison those who fitted the criteria, prisons would be bursting at the seams. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D A lot of faces look as though they should have a number underneath their mugshots.

Wasn't it argued not long back that a remark I made had been " similar, dog ugly ?" That I was asked what a criminal looked like when discussing Jeremy ? 

Offline Caroline

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 02:09:PM »
Oh dear,a LOT of people look " as guilty as sin ",and if left to ME to imprison those who fitted the criteria, prisons would be bursting at the seams. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D A lot of faces look as though they should have a number underneath their mugshots.

Wasn't it argued not long back that a remark I made had been " similar, dog ugly ?" That I was asked what a criminal looked like when discussing Jeremy ?

Both you and David have completely taken what I said out of context - and as David has isolated the one comment it was clearly on purpose. Had you read what I actually said you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself by writing the above but never mind!!

Let me explain it to both of you in a patronising and sarcastic manner  ::)

This is what I posted ......

"What has Skipio's argument got to do with me? That's not my argument! I'm happy with the circumstantial evidence, I think it's overwhelming and even without the silencer, he looks as guilty as sin. Comes down to who you believe, Jeremy or Julie and I don't believe Jeremy."

It's CLEAR to anyone who BOTHERED to read it properly that I was saying the CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE makes him LOOK as guilty as sin.

Twisting what people say in favour of trying to undermine because you are getting your knickers in a twist, is a bit low! Untwist them, it's just a forum and this is just a debate - we're NOT in court and we're not going to free Jeremy as armchair detectives. Some people would do better if they remembered that.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline maggie

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 02:11:PM »
Caroline the only exhibit that holds the case against Jeremy is the silencer. without it there is no proof what so ever he is guilty, If you recall Scipio's arguments (Who is a Lawyer) it was the basis for every argument he made for Jeremy's guilt. Its also the only convincing argument I can make for his guilt also. Without the sound-moderator the case collapses.

Every opinion and rumour is influenced by the silencer. If it was proven to have been a forgery then this is what will happen to the prosecution case.


Which is surely why some question the validity of the silencer evidence while believing him guilty.
It would not be the first time noble cause corruption has been used by the polive to nail a conviction when they lack evidence .

Offline Caroline

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 02:13:PM »


It shows how important the silencer is to establishing guilt. Julies testimony and the lack of evidence on Sheila was also important and STILL is. The ritual washing BS that the defence came up with doesn't hold up. Also, if you EVER see the CS picture of Nevill - you might change your mind! Although I have no idea where you stand on this case - you change with the wind.

The only circumstancial evidence is the silencer being in the gun cupboard and not on the end of the gun. Have you followed this case at all?  ???


And what is a guilty person supposed to look like?  ::) Tut, tut - you know what that meant - beneath you again!!
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Offline Caroline

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 02:18:PM »
Which is surely why some question the validity of the silencer evidence while believing him guilty.
It would not be the first time noble cause corruption has been used by the polive to nail a conviction when they lack evidence .

It's not the only evidence though Maggie and in isolation, each piece might seem unimportant, when you add them altogether, there are too many to be coincidental.

Just to add NCC might not be the way the law should work BUT, I'm sure it happens all the time and people would be crying from the rooftops if guilty SOB's got off on technicalities simply to offend again. Such would be the first to criticise.
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Offline Reader

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2015, 03:06:PM »
. . . when you add them altogether, there are too many to be coincidental.
How many exactly is "too many"? Five? Fifteen? When you happen to have lost count? Your wording reminds me of reasoning about "Ley lines", where people assert that too many of these lines have been found for it to be just a coincidence that they connect special sites. If JM had been questioned 300 times instead of 30, would that be "too many"?

Offline David1819

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2015, 03:28:PM »
The ritual washing BS that the defence came up with doesn't hold up

Are you not keeping up to date with the evidence?

I. Hand Swabs of Sheila Can'tII — DRH/33 / Item 17.
I have now been shown documentation which shows that the original hand swabs of Sheila Caffell were rejected by the laboratory on initial submission and that a set of hand swabs purporting to be that of Sheila Caffell were later submitted to the laboratory under a different exhibit and item number. Further, the SOCO exhibit sheets which fail to record any such resubmission. I am confident that this was not a matter of which I was ever aware. The alleged cleanliness of Sheila Caffell's hands was a key issue for the prosecution at trial. We had presented at trial a theory of ritualistic washing in the belief that the evidence presented by the prosecution in this regard was reliable. Had we known
about this issue. I cannot imagine we would not have firstly sought to exclude the evidence at trial; secondly, if admissible, pursued the matter in cross-examination and ,thirdly, instructed an expert to look at this issue more closely in the light of the rejection.

Paul Terzeon 2002

 

More importantly forensic science

Delay in obtaining residues, movement, or washing of the body prior to autopsy will diminish or destroy gunshot residues. (Molina et al, 2007) A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported. (Dalby et al, 2010)


http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html


.22 Caliber Ammunition Composition
Manufacturers of primers are not required to disclose their formulations or
any changes they may make in their formulations. This information is considered
proprietary and not made available to researchers and examiners.
The only way for examiners to keep abreast of primer formulation changes
is to conduct test firings of known ammunition and report their findings.
The 1989 change in some formulations of .22 Remington rimfire ammunition
is a case that underscores the importance of examiners conducting tests and
reporting their results. Some analysts who still adhered to the findings of the
Aerospace Report of 1977 did not routinely analyze .22 Remington rimfire
ammunition because it was common knowledge in the field that this formulation
did not contain Sb or Ba. However, in 1989, Remington added Sb and
Ba to its .22 rimfire primer, which meant GSR examination methods could
now detect Sb and Ba in this ammunition. The only way analysts could learn
about this change was through their own routine analyses of .22 Remington
rimfire ammunition. It is vital that examiners conduct routine analysis on
all primers and that they keep abreast of the findings reported by others


Schwoeble, A. J.
Current methods in forensic gunshot residue analysis / by A.J. Schwoeble,
David L. Exline.

Also, if you EVER see the CS picture of Nevill - you might change your mind!

I have seen it but in bad resolution. I can see it being pivotal to the investigation, Being shot seven times will make little difference if it was Jeremy or Shelia behind the trigger the result will be equally gruesome.

Although I have no idea where you stand on this case - you change with the wind.

I have never been convinced either way and don't have any emotional investment in this case. I am in complete harmony with the uncertainties in all aspects of life. my verdict is open


Have you followed this case at all?  ???

Yes very much so. you should know I have

Offline notsure

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2015, 04:15:PM »
Matt, i guess you feel i should know more about the case which would lead to me agreeing with you he is guilty.

based on the blunders by ep and lack of real evidence as i see it there is reasonable doubt.

people should remember we are not in the position of having all the facts and i like anyone else is entitled to an opinion.

Offline Caroline

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2015, 04:22:PM »
Are you not keeping up to date with the evidence?

I. Hand Swabs of Sheila Can'tII — DRH/33 / Item 17.
I have now been shown documentation which shows that the original hand swabs of Sheila Caffell were rejected by the laboratory on initial submission and that a set of hand swabs purporting to be that of Sheila Caffell were later submitted to the laboratory under a different exhibit and item number. Further, the SOCO exhibit sheets which fail to record any such resubmission. I am confident that this was not a matter of which I was ever aware. The alleged cleanliness of Sheila Caffell's hands was a key issue for the prosecution at trial. We had presented at trial a theory of ritualistic washing in the belief that the evidence presented by the prosecution in this regard was reliable. Had we known
about this issue. I cannot imagine we would not have firstly sought to exclude the evidence at trial; secondly, if admissible, pursued the matter in cross-examination and ,thirdly, instructed an expert to look at this issue more closely in the light of the rejection.

Paul Terzeon 2002
I guess you haven't read any historical posts here? I've written about the swabs MANY times, long before you were a member!!
 

More importantly forensic science

Delay in obtaining residues, movement, or washing of the body prior to autopsy will diminish or destroy gunshot residues. (Molina et al, 2007) A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported. (Dalby et al, 2010)


http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html And? Where is the blood spatter on Sheila's nightdress? If you had seen the pictures of Nevill, you would realise that whoever did that would be covered in blood and tissue!!


.22 Caliber Ammunition Composition
Manufacturers of primers are not required to disclose their formulations or
any changes they may make in their formulations. This information is considered
proprietary and not made available to researchers and examiners.
The only way for examiners to keep abreast of primer formulation changes
is to conduct test firings of known ammunition and report their findings.
The 1989 change in some formulations of .22 Remington rimfire ammunition
is a case that underscores the importance of examiners conducting tests and
reporting their results. Some analysts who still adhered to the findings of the
Aerospace Report of 1977 did not routinely analyze .22 Remington rimfire
ammunition because it was common knowledge in the field that this formulation
did not contain Sb or Ba. However, in 1989, Remington added Sb and
Ba to its .22 rimfire primer, which meant GSR examination methods could
now detect Sb and Ba in this ammunition. The only way analysts could learn
about this change was through their own routine analyses of .22 Remington
rimfire ammunition. It is vital that examiners conduct routine analysis on
all primers and that they keep abreast of the findings reported by others


Schwoeble, A. J.
Current methods in forensic gunshot residue analysis / by A.J. Schwoeble,
David L. Exline.

I have seen it but in bad resolution. I can see it being pivotal to the investigation, Being shot seven times will make little difference if it was Jeremy or Shelia behind the trigger the result will be equally gruesome. I'm not talking about the shots, I'm talking about the battering and I have seen it in high res - not a pretty sight!!

I have never been convinced either way and don't have any emotional investment in this case. I am in complete harmony with the uncertainties in all aspects of life. my verdict is open Neither do I, I just know he's guilty - I have no doubts 'now'.


Yes very much so. you should know I have - then you should know the silencer is NOT the only circumstantial evidence.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:23:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Jane

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2015, 04:39:PM »
Matt, i guess you feel i should know more about the case which would lead to me agreeing with you he is guilty.

based on the blunders by ep and lack of real evidence as i see it there is reasonable doubt.

people should remember we are not in the position of having all the facts and i like anyone else is entitled to an opinion.

This is certainly not the only case in which a conviction has been handed down on some circumstantial evidence.

Offline Caroline

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2015, 05:00:PM »
This is certainly not the only case in which a conviction has been handed down on some circumstantial evidence.

No it's not - it's VERY common.
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Offline notsure

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2015, 05:12:PM »
I expect circumstantial evidence raises its head in a lot of cases but maybe without all the descrepancies and blunde,  the police made.

its very unsettling this case.  The moderator played a big part and  i dont see why if he was staging the scene and had used the moderator he didnt simply toss it on the floor near shiela.take it off and put it back in the box in the cupboard makes no sense.

Too many things dont make sense and i would need to see all the trial transcripts on this to have a clearer opinion.

in the meantime im sitting on the fence.

Offline Jane

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2015, 05:17:PM »
I expect circumstantial evidence raises its head in a lot of cases but maybe without all the descrepancies and blunde,  the police made.

its very unsettling this case.  The moderator played a big part and  i dont see why if he was staging the scene and had used the moderator he didnt simply toss it on the floor near shiela.take it off and put it back in the box in the cupboard makes no sense.

Too many things dont make sense and i would need to see all the trial transcripts on this to have a clearer opinion.

in the meantime im sitting on the fence.


And maybe, if Jeremy was to admit having done it, things STILL wouldn't make sense because you're not in Jeremy's head.

guest154

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2015, 05:20:PM »
Matt, i guess you feel i should know more about the case which would lead to me agreeing with you he is guilty.

based on the blunders by ep and lack of real evidence as i see it there is reasonable doubt.

people should remember we are not in the position of having all the facts and i like anyone else is entitled to an opinion.

You yet again can't even spell my name properly - so excuse me if I don't take your views on anyone elses blunder seriously.  ;D

guest154

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Re: reasonable doubt
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2015, 05:24:PM »
I expect circumstantial evidence raises its head in a lot of cases but maybe without all the descrepancies and blunde,  the police made.

its very unsettling this case.  The moderator played a big part and  i dont see why if he was staging the scene and had used the moderator he didnt simply toss it on the floor near shiela.take it off and put it back in the box in the cupboard makes no sense.

Too many things dont make sense and i would need to see all the trial transcripts on this to have a clearer opinion.

in the meantime im sitting on the fence.

What's your thoughts on the point made against your point... you claim police state "attempt to make conversation with someone inside farmhouse."............Howcome you ignored the rest of the sentence when they say NO RESPONSE?