Author Topic: Another MASSIVE Lie  (Read 36928 times)

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Offline notsure

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2015, 06:48:PM »
She cant say i know hes guilty because she wasnt there. Same for bews.

they have thier opinions like everyone else.

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2015, 06:56:PM »




JM was betwixt and between as half of her wanted to spite him but only because of his waywardness,nothing else. Until she was spurred on to side with the guilty and the possibility and prospect of what would be in store if she went along with everyone else, it was called a sweetener-----------and who wouldn't be tempted by such a huge amount as it was then ?  I wonder if she thought about the word blackmail ?
EP must have thought all their Christmases had come at once after that tempting tactic,because they had nothing on Jeremy. JM WOULD have had feelings of guilt but it's surprising how quickly those feelings vanish when you've got a healthy bank account.
JM was bamboozled into her part at the trial------------shame on EP for influencing and grooming a young woman for their own ends.


In your opinion only, of course.

guest1199

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2015, 07:42:PM »
Hi Tom, from your account I guess you don't think he did the shooting (some people think he's guilty but 'framed' with the silencer evidence)? Can I ask why you think EP would frame Jeremy when they had the case sewn up as a murder/suicide? Especially as they had to make themselves look pretty stupid and seriously incompetent in order to do so. Also, at what point did they start framing him? If there was a call from Nevill, they knew t from day one and could have proven to the relatives that Jeremy was innocent. If there was a female body in the kitchen, they knew it from day one and could have proven ........ you get the picture. So, when and why would they have decided to frame Jeremy?

Jeremy being framed drags up more questions than why Nevill wasn't targeted first BUT, I can offer a suggestion (or two). The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened. Nevill may have awoken before Jeremy was able to get into a good enough position to shoot OR he may have been sleeping in another room (there are no casings on Nevill's side of the bed other than those used to kill Sheila, none of Nevill's blood was found in the main bedroom but there was some outside of Sheila's room - on the landing and all of the casings are located near to the main bedroom door). This may explain how Nevill managed to get passed Jeremy and down stairs.
Hi Caroline

OK. So the last thing I said was that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, you also mentioned that “The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened”.  If Jeremy or anyone else decides that they are going to massacre their family then planning is going to come into the equation.

The first thing that worries me is the calibre of the gun or at least it’s efficiency as a killing weapon.  As far as I know Neville was hit 8 times, June was hit 7, Daniel5 times and Nicholas 3 times (Wikipedia source).  There were over 30 cartridges spent as I understand it.  The gun was of low calibre and completely inefficient for the task.  It may be effective in killing rats, bunnies and foxes but Jeremy must have known the gun was not the weapon of choice. IMO Jeremy would not take that risk or make that mistake. 

If Jeremy was to kill his family he would have certainly have acquired a heavier calibre gun to dispatch the family when they are all in the same room perhaps when having lunch or having a family get-together such as a birthday or anniversary, that way there is a lot less risk.  For Jeremy’s plan to work either way it would have to include one absolutely crucial outcome which was to make it appear that the murder of Sheila would look like suicide.  It would have been out of the question to stage the suicide with Neville or June since they would have no motive to murder or suicide.  So Jeremy would have had to predict the unpredictable and rely on his paranoid schizophrenic sister who was capable of anything on a night that absolutely anything could have happened to be absolutely compliant and to act exactly according to his plan of action.

So while Jeremy was walking towards the farmhouse that night he would have known that the only way that he was not going to be convicted for murder would be for the above staged suicide scenario to be an absolute certainty, if not there would be no way he would avoid arrest and subsequent charges.  He might have considered the possibility that his climbing through the window would set the dog barking and he might have to confront Neville perhaps with a shotgun trying to find out what the problem was. Jeremy would then have to take care of him and the rest of the family with his bunny-popper gun providing he got to it first.  If he did manage to get to the gun first there would have been a complete uproar with Neville would have been crashing about trying to defend himself while he took the 8 low-calibre bullets that killed him.  With all the time that would take it could have resulted in the twins as well as Sheila and June in hearing the uproar trying to escape down any one of the farmhouses 3 staircases trying to get out or find places to hide resulting in a fiasco.  Unfortunately JB was apparently too stupid even to contemplate that on his way to the farmhouse on that ruinous night.  He was to busy thinking the unthinkable, predicting the unpredictable and planning the unplannable in order to get the exact result needed, the staged suicide of Sheila.

Nah! Life doesn’t work like that.  The case against JB is a stitch-up.

Hoots

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2015, 07:57:PM »
Hi Caroline

OK. So the last thing I said was that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, you also mentioned that “The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened”.  If Jeremy or anyone else decides that they are going to massacre their family then planning is going to come into the equation.

The first thing that worries me is the calibre of the gun or at least it’s efficiency as a killing weapon.  As far as I know Neville was hit 8 times, June was hit 7, Daniel5 times and Nicholas 3 times (Wikipedia source).  There were over 30 cartridges spent as I understand it.  The gun was of low calibre and completely inefficient for the task.  It may be effective in killing rats, bunnies and foxes but Jeremy must have known the gun was not the weapon of choice. IMO Jeremy would not take that risk or make that mistake. 

If Jeremy was to kill his family he would have certainly have acquired a heavier calibre gun to dispatch the family when they are all in the same room perhaps when having lunch or having a family get-together such as a birthday or anniversary, that way there is a lot less risk.  For Jeremy’s plan to work either way it would have to include one absolutely crucial outcome which was to make it appear that the murder of Sheila would look like suicide.  It would have been out of the question to stage the suicide with Neville or June since they would have no motive to murder or suicide.  So Jeremy would have had to predict the unpredictable and rely on his paranoid schizophrenic sister who was capable of anything on a night that absolutely anything could have happened to be absolutely compliant and to act exactly according to his plan of action.

So while Jeremy was walking towards the farmhouse that night he would have known that the only way that he was not going to be convicted for murder would be for the above staged suicide scenario to be an absolute certainty, if not there would be no way he would avoid arrest and subsequent charges.  He might have considered the possibility that his climbing through the window would set the dog barking and he might have to confront Neville perhaps with a shotgun trying to find out what the problem was. Jeremy would then have to take care of him and the rest of the family with his bunny-popper gun providing he got to it first.  If he did manage to get to the gun first there would have been a complete uproar with Neville would have been crashing about trying to defend himself while he took the 8 low-calibre bullets that killed him.  With all the time that would take it could have resulted in the twins as well as Sheila and June in hearing the uproar trying to escape down any one of the farmhouses 3 staircases trying to get out or find places to hide resulting in a fiasco.  Unfortunately JB was apparently too stupid even to contemplate that on his way to the farmhouse on that ruinous night.  He was to busy thinking the unthinkable, predicting the unpredictable and planning the unplannable in order to get the exact result needed, the staged suicide of Sheila.

Nah! Life doesn’t work like that.  The case against JB is a stitch-up.

Hoots

I hope you don't mind me answering this.

Jeremy had no choice of weapon. He had to use what his father bought him and why would Nevill think he wanted a gun for anything other than shooting game?

It's one thing to say he could have planned it for a family gathering. Getting them all together for such an occasion is something else, especially in a fractured family. Besides which, he wanted it to appear as if Sheila had done it.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines with the benefit of hindsight and say what he should have planned for, but I'll guarantee that Jeremy BELIEVED he'd planned for every possibility and one of them WOULDN'T have been having to shoot Sheila twice.

Offline lookout

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2015, 08:10:PM »
Yes,I can see it.Sheila wouldn't do as she was told the first time to lie down flat, as it missed the spot. ::)

If the first shot had been a contact one,there'd have been no need for a second shot. Strewth,you couldn't be any nearer to have got an exact aim to the jugular !  I thought Jeremy was down as being a " crack-shot ?"

Offline maggie

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2015, 08:21:PM »
I hope you don't mind me answering this.

Jeremy had no choice of weapon. He had to use what his father bought him and why would Nevill think he wanted a gun for anything other than shooting game?

It's one thing to say he could have planned it for a family gathering. Getting them all together for such an occasion is something else, especially in a fractured family. Besides which, he wanted it to appear as if Sheila had done it.

It's easy to sit on the sidelines with the benefit of hindsight and say what he should have planned for, but I'll guarantee that Jeremy BELIEVED he'd planned for every possibility and one of them WOULDN'T have been having to shoot Sheila twice.
I'm not definite he planed to kill her with one shot, Jane.  I think it's possible that he had to accept he may have had to shoot her twice possibly checking out the statistics but if he was the murderer of the 5 closest people in his family he was surely extremely disordered and because of that he would probably have been a risk taker and was happy to take the chance??  He was certainly very careless with the detail. :-\
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:25:PM by maggie »

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2015, 08:31:PM »
I'm not definite he planed to kill her with one shot, Jane.  I think it's possible that he had to accept he may have had to shoot her twice possibly checking out the statistics but if he was the murderer of the 5 closest people in his family he was surely extremely disordered and because of that he would probably have been a risk taker and was happy to take the chance??  He was certainly very careless with the detail. :-\


Well, if we're frank, Maggie, it would have been so much more simple to have placed the barrel in her mouth but the one thing he wouldn't have been able to force her to do was open her mouth. Had she, I don't imagine a second shot would have been necessary.

Offline maggie

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2015, 08:34:PM »
Yes,I can see it.Sheila wouldn't do as she was told the first time to lie down flat, as it missed the spot. ::)

If the first shot had been a contact one,there'd have been no need for a second shot. Strewth,you couldn't be any nearer to have got an exact aim to the jugular !  I thought Jeremy was down as being a " crack-shot ?"
Hi Lookout, I don't believe Sheila had to lie down flat for the first shot.  Far more likely she was threatened while sitting with the gun held close to her neck and was shot before she was aware what was happening, the first shot always had to be quick before she had a chance to fight back even if it didn't kill her.  She probably then fell sideways but was moved into position for the second more conclusive and obvious suicidal shot.  I don't believe for one minute that Sheila would have lamely laid down and let anyone shoot her, think she was taken by surprise.
If she had shot herself it's more likely she would have lain in a semi conscious position until she faded away and died rather than pick up that rifle and get into a really difficult position to shoot herself again, think if she had tried to shoot herself again she would possibly have failed again because the position she needed to get into to succeed was very difficult, particularly considering the state she must have been in.
I know I have argued from the other side but that doesn't make sense to me anymore, I'm afraid. :'(
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:42:PM by maggie »

Offline lookout

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2015, 08:44:PM »
Hi Lookout, I don't believe Sheila had to lie down flat for the first shot.  Far more likely she was threatened while sitting with the gun held close to her neck and was shot before she was aware what was happening, the first shot always had to be quick before she had a chance to fight back even if it didn't kill her.  She probably then fell sideways but was moved into position for the second more conclusive and obvious suicidal shot.  I don't believe for one minute that Sheila would have lamely laid down and let anyone shoot her, think she was taken by surprise.
If she had shot herself it's more likely she would have lain in a semi conscious position until she faded away and died rather than pick up that rifle and get into a really difficult position to shoot herself again, think if she had tried to shoot herself again she would possibly have failed to kill herself again because the position she needed to get into to succeed was very difficult, particularly the state she must have been in.
I know I have argued from the other side but that doesn't make sense to me anymore, I'm afraid. :'(








I don't believe that Sheila lay down for that first shot either. I've always held on to the idea that during the time her father grappled with her to retrieve the rifle,it went off accidentally at the angle in which one would hold their head to avoid being shot in the face while the thing wavered about. Though to my mind,it happened in the kitchen and realistically there was no way that Sheila could have got up 3 flights of stairs as that shot would have left her semi-concious.

Offline maggie

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2015, 08:47:PM »





I don't believe that Sheila lay down for that first shot either. I've always held on to the idea that during the time her father grappled with her to retrieve the rifle,it went off accidentally at the angle in which one would hold their head to avoid being shot in the face while the thing wavered about. Though to my mind,it happened in the kitchen and realistically there was no way that Sheila could have got up 3 flights of stairs as that shot would have left her semi-concious.
The problem is if Sheila was badly injured in that way how did Nevill come to be dead as well and who killed him?

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2015, 08:47:PM »
Hi Lookout, I don't believe Sheila had to lie down flat for the first shot.  Far more likely she was threatened while sitting with the gun held close to her neck and was shot before she was aware what was happening, the first shot always had to be quick before she had a chance to fight back even if it didn't kill her.  She probably then fell sideways but was moved into position for the second more conclusive and obvious suicidal shot.  I don't believe for one minute that Sheila would have lamely laid down and let anyone shoot her, think she was taken by surprise.
If she had shot herself it's more likely she would have lain in a semi conscious position until she faded away and died rather than pick up that rifle and get into a really difficult position to shoot herself again, think if she had tried to shoot herself again she would possibly have failed to kill herself again because the position she needed to get into to succeed was very difficult, particularly the state she must have been in.
I know I have argued from the other side but that doesn't make sense to me anymore, I'm afraid. :'(


Maggie, we've had posters talking about her taking a second shot, posters talking about her walking upstairs and whilst I've been told about chicken running around without their heads, I'm damned if I can believe that Sheila was capable of A) shooting herself twice or B) running around all over the house after the shooting herself/being shot in the neck.

Offline maggie

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2015, 08:50:PM »

Maggie, we've had posters talking about her taking a second shot, posters talking about her walking upstairs and whilst I've been told about chicken running around without their heads, I'm damned if I can believe that Sheila was capable of A) shooting herself twice or B) running around all over the house after the shooting herself/being shot in the neck.
I don't believe she moved round the house although I could see she may have been able to reach out for the rifle if it had fallen within reach and shoot herself again this time from a different and more effective angle but it is clutching at straws, I think. :-\

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2015, 08:51:PM »







I don't believe that Sheila lay down for that first shot either. I've always held on to the idea that during the time her father grappled with her to retrieve the rifle,it went off accidentally at the angle in which one would hold their head to avoid being shot in the face while the thing wavered about. Though to my mind,it happened in the kitchen and realistically there was no way that Sheila could have got up 3 flights of stairs as that shot would have left her semi-concious.


If she'd been close enough to Nevill for him to grapple with the gun, the barrel would have been too long to shoot her in the neck. Even if he had managed it, how, with that sort of injury, did she manage to shoot him and beat him to death.

Offline Jane

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2015, 08:57:PM »
I don't believe she moved round the house although I could see she may have been able to reach out for the rifle if it had fallen within reach and shoot herself again this time from a different and more effective angle but it is clutching at straws, I think. :-\

It is, rather 8) ^-^

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Another MASSIVE Lie
« Reply #119 on: December 01, 2015, 09:05:PM »
Hi Caroline

OK. So the last thing I said was that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, you also mentioned that “The best laid plans don't always work the way they were planned and perhaps circumstances intervened”.  If Jeremy or anyone else decides that they are going to massacre their family then planning is going to come into the equation.

The first thing that worries me is the calibre of the gun or at least it’s efficiency as a killing weapon.  As far as I know Neville was hit 8 times, June was hit 7, Daniel5 times and Nicholas 3 times (Wikipedia source).  There were over 30 cartridges spent as I understand it.  The gun was of low calibre and completely inefficient for the task.  It may be effective in killing rats, bunnies and foxes but Jeremy must have known the gun was not the weapon of choice. IMO Jeremy would not take that risk or make that mistake. 

If Jeremy was to kill his family he would have certainly have acquired a heavier calibre gun to dispatch the family when they are all in the same room perhaps when having lunch or having a family get-together such as a birthday or anniversary, that way there is a lot less risk.  For Jeremy’s plan to work either way it would have to include one absolutely crucial outcome which was to make it appear that the murder of Sheila would look like suicide.  It would have been out of the question to stage the suicide with Neville or June since they would have no motive to murder or suicide.  So Jeremy would have had to predict the unpredictable and rely on his paranoid schizophrenic sister who was capable of anything on a night that absolutely anything could have happened to be absolutely compliant and to act exactly according to his plan of action.

So while Jeremy was walking towards the farmhouse that night he would have known that the only way that he was not going to be convicted for murder would be for the above staged suicide scenario to be an absolute certainty, if not there would be no way he would avoid arrest and subsequent charges.  He might have considered the possibility that his climbing through the window would set the dog barking and he might have to confront Neville perhaps with a shotgun trying to find out what the problem was. Jeremy would then have to take care of him and the rest of the family with his bunny-popper gun providing he got to it first.  If he did manage to get to the gun first there would have been a complete uproar with Neville would have been crashing about trying to defend himself while he took the 8 low-calibre bullets that killed him.  With all the time that would take it could have resulted in the twins as well as Sheila and June in hearing the uproar trying to escape down any one of the farmhouses 3 staircases trying to get out or find places to hide resulting in a fiasco.  Unfortunately JB was apparently too stupid even to contemplate that on his way to the farmhouse on that ruinous night.  He was to busy thinking the unthinkable, predicting the unpredictable and planning the unplannable in order to get the exact result needed, the staged suicide of Sheila.

Nah! Life doesn’t work like that.  The case against JB is a stitch-up.

Hoots
The whole rationale for the murders was that Sheila had seen him loading the "bunny-popper" and this had set machinations whirring inside her brain. The lame excuse "Well I didn't know what would happen,did I?" is Jeremy's black humour rising to the surface and speaks volumes. He doesn't need to flap around looking for the rifle as he has concealed it somewhere on the Farm premises shortly before he leaves,with no living witnesses to contest his story. He had the occasion to witness the sleeping arrangements and Sheila's demeanour from the Sunday night, and of course viewing her on her last visit to the Farm in June of that year he knew how fragile she was. He had been in and out of the Farm via windows many times before("secure windows,insecure windows..it makes no difference") and a dog which recognizes the smell of an intruder is unlikely to bark.

The alibi came from the purported telephone call which Jeremy made from the Farm to his answerphone at Goldhanger,which would be registered as well as on the office telephone,which had a last number redial facility. Nevill had been ill and was described as a shadow of his former self by Barbara Wilson,June and the twins were sitting ducks and Sheila would be awoken from a deep sleep,overdosed as she was on Haloperidol.

The final irony was pulling Sheila by the legs to check whether she was dead,revenge for the same treatment she had given him when she wakened her brother all those years ago on Christmas morning and they proceeded downstairs to the tree,bedecked with parcels and sweetmeats, which they gorged together,in that convivial alienation which was White House Farm.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 11:23:PM by Steve_uk »