The 3am telephone call. What was said ?

[scipio_usmc]

This is one of your better posts,but reading other posts from members today on different threads I come back to something which struck me in Carol Ann Lee's book regarding Malcolm Waters' comments about Jeremy:

"He sensed that Jeremy was easily led and susceptible to others..he was always looking for affection,especially from girls".

Julie fulfilled both criteria,and one has to wonder whether this was coincidence or deliberate policy on her part. It certainly might make some members put a different light on her whole role in the affair.

Waters felt he was susceptible to peer pressure from other guys and tried looking deeper at why Jeremy was into booze and carefree sex so that he could say Jeremy wasn't a dog.  It was making excuses in ways. He was a dog. He liked carefree sex and boozing he wasn't having sex to try to make emotional attachments. Carefree sex is about avoiding such attachments.





 

[maggie]

Waters felt he was susceptible to peer pressure from other guys and tried looking deeper at why Jeremy was into booze and carefree sex so that he could say Jeremy wasn't a dog.  It was making excuses in ways. He was a dog. He liked carefree sex and boozing he wasn't having sex to try to make emotional attachments. Carefree sex is about avoiding such attachments.



 

Not unusual for young men of that age particularly as he may have had attachment problems and emotional confusion because of his adoption. Also adoptees can often camouflage so as to 'fit in', be one of the guys etc.

[scipio_usmc]

Not unusual for young men of that age particularly as he may have had attachment problems and emotional confusion because of his adoption. Also adoptees can often camouflage so as to 'fit in', be one of the guys etc.

It's not unusual for men period to enjoy sleeping around with as many different women as they can instead of looking to make a serious commitment.  Young impressionable girls sleep around to get attention and affection they expect to get more out of it than they actually will get. On occasion some young boys do that as well.  Men do it for fun, they don't want the emotional attachment. As women get older they become more like men and some don't want an emotional attachment and just like to party. 

 

[maggie]

It's not unusual for men period to enjoy sleeping around with as many different women as they can instead of looking to make a serious commitment.  Young impressionable girls sleep around to get attention and affection they expect to get more out of it than they actually will get. On occasion some young boys do that as well.  Men do it for fun, they don't want the emotional attachment. As women get older they become more like men and some don't want an emotional attachment and just like to party.

He probably had attachment difficulties due to his adoption and difficult relationship with his adoptive mother.

[scipio_usmc]

He probably had attachment difficulties due to his adoption and difficult relationship with his adoptive mother.

I can list dozens of guys I know personally who were raised by 2 loving parents who were/are dogs who love to sleep around and even cheat on their wives/girlfriends. Some of them do it with pros particularly at "massage parlors" and the like but some would go barhopping just as they did when unattached. They find sex boring with the same person always and like the excitement of new partners.  Problems they encounter is sometimes the women end up wanting more than just a meaningless fling and then they start getting in trouble essentially having multiple girlfriends the same time and they end up miserable.  I can't say I feel sorry for them when that happens I think they deserve it because you reap what you sow.

Sometimes the woman feels the same way and they have open relationships or even swing. All I can say about that is I guess if they both agree to it then at least it is not cheating behind their back which is worse.  Some of the men think that cheating is better because the woman would be hurt to know they go to massage parlors and say as long as they know it doesn't hurt them but it still can hurt them if they catch something and pass it on.  People love to rationalize their bad habits though...

Some people like monogamy while others can't stand it.  Some like monogamy but cheat simply because unhappy and find someone new then divorce/break up to be monogamous with the new person.  Back in the day when morals were taught and meant something people were criticized and this kept a lot of people from doing such. Today they are taught it is ok to have sex outside marriage anytime you want with anyone you want and swinging and orgies are ok and playing with the same sex is ok and basically morals have gone out the window so it is chaos. 

There is a movie called the To Do List.  I found it extremely stupid.  A girl decided she wanted to become experienced sexually and made a list of various sexual things to try and checked off each one she tried.  It was sex just to try each one and didn't really matter who she did it with.  Her sister had sex basically with any guy she could find.  The mother defended and encouraged them against a father who objected.  Feminists said this was a great movie because it encourages girls to be as sexually free as men without the stigma of being called a tramp.  It was like she was just a robot as she picked a guy to try something with.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1758795/

I have little doubt that at Jeremy's school some of the guys had contests to see who slept with the most girls.  Sex is a game for such people not about an emotional connection they are seeking. 



     

 

[vidvic]

You're very vocal. 

 

[maggie]

I can list dozens of guys I know personally who were raised by 2 loving parents who were/are dogs who love to sleep around and even cheat on their wives/girlfriends. Some of them do it with pros particularly at "massage parlors" and the like but some would go barhopping just as they did when unattached. They find sex boring with the same person always and like the excitement of new partners.  Problems they encounter is sometimes the women end up wanting more than just a meaningless fling and then they start getting in trouble essentially having multiple girlfriends the same time and they end up miserable.  I can't say I feel sorry for them when that happens I think they deserve it because you reap what you sow.

Sometimes the woman feels the same way and they have open relationships or even swing. All I can say about that is I guess if they both agree to it then at least it is not cheating behind their back which is worse.  Some of the men think that cheating is better because the woman would be hurt to know they go to massage parlors and say as long as they know it doesn't hurt them but it still can hurt them if they catch something and pass it on.  People love to rationalize their bad habits though...

Some people like monogamy while others can't stand it.  Some like monogamy but cheat simply because unhappy and find someone new then divorce/break up to be monogamous with the new person.  Back in the day when morals were taught and meant something people were criticized and this kept a lot of people from doing such. Today they are taught it is ok to have sex outside marriage anytime you want with anyone you want and swinging and orgies are ok and playing with the same sex is ok and basically morals have gone out the window so it is chaos. 

There is a movie called the To Do List.  I found it extremely stupid.  A girl decided she wanted to become experienced sexually and made a list of various sexual things to try and checked off each one she tried.  It was sex just to try each one and didn't really matter who she did it with.  Her sister had sex basically with any guy she could find.  The mother defended and encouraged them against a father who objected.  Feminists said this was a great movie because it encourages girls to be as sexually free as men without the stigma of being called a tramp.  It was like she was just a robot as she picked a guy to try something with.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1758795/

I have little doubt that at Jeremy's school some of the guys had contests to see who slept with the most girls.  Sex is a game for such people not about an emotional connection they are seeking. 



     

 

Thanks for that, I have lived in the world and seen plenty. I accept what your saying but however much you choose to drown out my opinion it, is still true. HE AND SHEILA PROBABLY HAD ATTACHMENT DIFFICULTIES BECAUSE OF THEIR ADOPTION!!!  Sheila seemed to have similar behaviours in that way. It is not a slur on her but a fact, she had difficulties with relationships possibly made worse by her P.S. which possibly came from her adoption and subsequent inability to bond at a deep level with her adoptive mother. I'm sure you will reject my opinions but that doesn't change the truth.
 

[Jane]

Thanks for that, I have lived in the world and seen plenty. I accept what your saying but however much you choose to drown out my opinion it, is still true. HE AND SHEILA PROBABLY HAD ATTACHMENT DIFFICULTIES BECAUSE OF THEIR ADOPTION!!!  Sheila seemed to have similar behaviours in that way. It is not a slur on her but a fact, she had difficulties with relationships possibly made worse by her P.S. which possibly came from her adoption and subsequent inability to bond at a deep level with her adoptive mother. I'm sure you will reject my opinions but that doesn't change the truth.

Naturally, I have to support what you've said. If June's exacting standards had had the effect of making both children feel unable to meet them and therefore unworthy, they would have sought the approval/ positive affirmation they didn't get from her wherever they could find it. It would have meant that they both wanted to be noticed and in receipt of other's respect. They would have been, without realizing it, looking for love.

As I'm fairly confident Scipio will be calling me ignorant YET again, I'm going to throw in that this formula isn't just the reserve of those who are adopted. We ALL need to feel that we're loved -not sure about Scipio. He seems to make up his own rules- it MAY be that those who have suffered that irresolvable first rejection need it more than most.

[susan]

Naturally, I have to support what you've said. If June's exacting standards had had the effect of making both children feel unable to meet them and therefore unworthy, they would have sought the approval/ positive affirmation they didn't get from her wherever they could find it. It would have meant that they both wanted to be noticed and in receipt of other's respect. They would have been, without realizing it, looking for love.

As I'm fairly confident Scipio will be calling me ignorant YET again, I'm going to throw in that this formula isn't just the reserve of those who are adopted. We ALL need to feel that we're loved -not sure about Scipio. He seems to make up his own rules- it MAY be that those who have suffered that irresolvable first rejection need it more than most.

Morning Jane

I know nothing of Attachment Difficulties or Adoption but I do know we all need to be loved and guess from being a child we know when love is not forthcoming.  I remember speaking to a young lady who slept around and I asked her why she did it and she said she just wanted the men to love her so sad she must have really felt unloved now she gets her love from her 16 cats.

[maggie]

Naturally, I have to support what you've said. If June's exacting standards had had the effect of making both children feel unable to meet them and therefore unworthy, they would have sought the approval/ positive affirmation they didn't get from her wherever they could find it. It would have meant that they both wanted to be noticed and in receipt of other's respect. They would have been, without realizing it, looking for love.

As I'm fairly confident Scipio will be calling me ignorant YET again, I'm going to throw in that this formula isn't just the reserve of those who are adopted. We ALL need to feel that we're loved -not sure about Scipio. He seems to make up his own rules- it MAY be that those who have suffered that irresolvable first rejection need it more than most.

Very true Jane, not every person in biological families has love and security and this must have an impact on anyone's ability to relate to others and can cause people to look in the wrong place for love. I do believe however much an adopted child may be given love and security that initial break from their biologically natural place can and often does cause difficulties in relationships.

[maggie]

Morning Jane

I know nothing of Attachment Difficulties or Adoption but I do know we all need to be loved and guess from being a child we know when love is not forthcoming.  I remember speaking to a young lady who slept around and I asked her why she did it and she said she just wanted the men to love her so sad she must have really felt unloved now she gets her love from her 16 cats.

Sensible lady 

[maggie]

Naturally, I have to support what you've said. If June's exacting standards had had the effect of making both children feel unable to meet them and therefore unworthy, they would have sought the approval/ positive affirmation they didn't get from her wherever they could find it. It would have meant that they both wanted to be noticed and in receipt of other's respect. They would have been, without realizing it, looking for love.

As I'm fairly confident Scipio will be calling me ignorant YET again, I'm going to throw in that this formula isn't just the reserve of those who are adopted. We ALL need to feel that we're loved -not sure about Scipio. He seems to make up his own rules- it MAY be that those who have suffered that irresolvable first rejection need it more than most.

I remember Steve making the point a long time ago that for Jeremy Su Ford was a mother figure, I have to agree with him that it's clearly a real possibilty this was the case and he had a need for love and security and safety within that relationship unfortunately it didn't work out so he rejected that and reverted to type ........ maybe?

[susan]

Sensible lady 

 

[Jane]

I remember Steve making the point a long time ago that for Jeremy Su Ford was a mother figure, I have to agree with him that it's clearly a real possibilty this was the case and he had a need for love and security and safety within that relationship unfortunately it didn't work out so he rejected that and reverted to type ........ maybe?

It's a very real possibility, Maggie. I have known a several men who have always been attracted to older women. In each case it appeared that something had been lacking in the mother/son relationship which they were trying to get right through the new relationship. I have watched in amazement as the women concerned have treated these grown men like naughty children but they seemed to love it. The rule is, for a child, negative attention -even to abuse- is better than NO attention. It goes a long way towards explaining why so many end up in abusive relationships.

[Adam]

It seems no one is able to offer an alternative credible conversation between the two of them at 3am.

I wonder whether it was a spur of the moment decision to phone Julie ? Hyped up and wanting to tell someone 'everything is going well. Which at the same time helps convince him 'everything is going well' in the middle of his massive gamble.  Julie had also dismissed his 'now or never' claim only a few hours earlier.

The other possibility is he planned to phone Julie and wanted the police to know this. He can say he phoned her from his cottage backing up his claim he was there all night. But he didn't need to do this. He phoned the police from his cottage and arrived at WHF  after the police.

Either way it was a big mistake.