The 3am telephone call. What was said ?

[maggie]

The trouble is 30 years ago he made a concious decision to telephone Julie at 3am. So a few weeks later will know why he called her and what was said.

However he just said 'no comment' to police before giving a weak reason when testifying. Julie is able to say exactly what was said.

He was well within his rights to say 'no comment' when being questioned by the police, Julie was in a different position. 
No one can dispute what he said but neither can anyone do more than speculate as to what was actually said by either party, even Julie's statement about the phone conversatio is a bit disjointed and unconvincing imo.

[maggie]

Welcome to the conversation, Maggie. It's somewhat trying to hold one with someone who asks the question "What was said" and proceeds to dispute everything but what he believed was the answer in the first place, which rather negates the need to ask it, doesn't it?

I do see your point 

[Jane]

We do know what was said. One of the two participants to the conversation has said in detail on her WS. Bamber has not really disputed this and did not want to discuss the conversation with the police.

I'm not altering any times. I don't believe it makes much difference when Bamber said 'tonight's the night', 'it's now or never' and 'I've been thinking about the crime all day'. Julie just dismissed it and would have carried on speaking.

However I suspect Julie told Bamber about her day first. She was in an upbeat mood so would be keen to divulge.

Strange how you treat WS as if they are something holy. They are no guarantee of truth. Julie was the only person who heard exactly what Jeremy said so was free to leave out anything he said which could have suggested that THEY had previously discussed "the crime" more than she admitted. There would be no point in Jeremy saying ANYTHING to the police because it may possibly implicate him in something he's claiming innocence of.

[lookout]

Who knows what was said ? Whatever it was it's going to be wrong.

[Adam]

Strange how you treat WS as if they are something holy. They are no guarantee of truth. Julie was the only person who heard exactly what Jeremy said so was free to leave out anything he said which could have suggested that THEY had previously discussed "the crime" more than she admitted. There would be no point in Jeremy saying ANYTHING to the police because it may possibly implicate him in something he's claiming innocence of.

Well her WS is a lot longer and goes into more detail than Bamber's. I have justified it in my 'ring of truth' thread.

More than she admitted ?

She advised him not to burn down WHF and supplied sleeping pills for him. As well as listen to his final plan to frame Sheila and here him say 'tonight's the night'.

Apart from being there with him I don't see how much more involved she could be.

[Adam]

Who knows what was said ? Whatever it was it's going to be wrong.

What do you think Bamber said to Julie ?  He has refused to say.

Julie has given exact words, which had Bamber giving her a 3am  information update. This is credible and matches a guilty verdict.

[lookout]

Nobody needed to supply any sleeping pills as there were plenty already in-situ between Sheila and June. EP took a quantity of tablets from the farmhouse,but we never got to know what they were.

[Jane]

Well her WS is a lot longer and goes into more detail than Bamber's.................WHICH MEANS? I have justified it in my 'ring of truth' thread. ...........YOU MAY HAVE, BUT TO WHOM?

More than she admitted ? ................NO ONE WILL DISPUTE IT

She advised him not to burn down WHF and supplied sleeping pills for him. As well as listen to his final plan to frame Sheila and here him say 'tonight's the night'...................NO ONE IS DENYING IT.

Apart from being there with him I don't see how much more involved she could be..................I DON'T SUPPOSE YOU CAN.

[scipio_usmc]

Why are you inventing things? The times wasn't given by anyone as 3am. At trial, it was concluded that the time of this call wasn't established precisely, and it could have been as late as 3:30am. Jeremy didn't remember what he said to Julie when he called her (after receiving Nevill's call), but, when interviewed in September 1985, he specifically denied telling her he hadn't slept all night. Jeremy didn't avoid questions about the call - he simply stated he didn't recall what he said to Julie. As he can't recall the details of the conversation, it's hardly surprising that the OS is "quiet" about those details. Julie's supposed recollection of what he said didn't "materialise" until she'd been interviewed dozens of times. You seem uninterested in the contents of all those interviews she had before she gave her released statement.

2 of the witnesses say around 3am, the witnesses in question are the ones who looked at their clocks. The other 2 did not.  No one honest believes the call was at 3:30 but then again an honest person admits Jeremy phoned Chelmsford prior to 3:26.

[lookout]

One has to err on the side of caution with whatever JM had said/stated. The hitman debacle was enough for me. You don't knowingly drag someone into something as serious as a murder investigation. If Jeremy had jokingly said the vicar,she'd have gone along with that too.

[scipio_usmc]

Some people seem to be suggesting maybe he had a long conversation with Julie.  The roommates who got up and balled Julie out would have noted it if they had to wait  a long time for her to get off before being able to ball her out.  Spending a long time on the phone would be harmful to Jeremy.  His goals were 1) to tell Julie what he had done because he was bursting at the seems from excitement so needed to tell someone and she was his confidant; 2) to get her to claim he called to say he was alerted to trouble at WHF.  his was supposed to be corroboration he actually was alerted to trouble because if he was just pretending then he would not have phoned her to tell her too he only would have told the police such.  He would not take a really long time on the phone doing such.

Even if he had pre-discussed with Julie that he was going to call her to falsely say he received a distress call from WHF he would not have stayed on the phone long. The call was even shorter because Julie was not fully awake so she didn't react and if she had reacted it could have prolonged the conversation by a half minute maybe but big deal.  He didn't anticipate having a long conversation with her.

She was half asleep still so didn't elaborate on the trouble he said he was alerted to. He might very well have told her in this message that Nevill called saying Sheila had the gun but not remembered it.  She said that he told her in his second call about Julie and the gun but maybe he told her in both.  It is doubtful he used the exact words there is trouble at WHF and that's it. he exact words don't matter though what matter is the import of the message. The import of the message was his claim he was alerted by  phone to trouble at WHF.

She said that in advance of the murders he told her that his plan would involve a call from WHF but she didn't entirely understand him.  Whether that is because he didn't explain it in full or because she wasn't listening fully trying to fully follow him who knows. It is highly doubtful though that he told her he planned to call her to say he received a call and would use her to help back up his story.  That seemed to be something he decided to do spontaneously or planned at some point but didn't let her in on that part.  If he actually involved her then he would have said I am going to call you and you can pretend I told you that I received a distress call...  He would not need to actually say it they could talk about other stuff. "Hi things went like clockwork I'm going to call the police now you make sure you remember what to tell them. Bye."  Did she lie and is that what he actually said to her?  It is always a slight possibility but there is nothing to prove she lied and that this is what he really said and I see no reason to disbelieve her.

[Jan]

I think she was telling the truth here 

[Jane]

Some people seem to be suggesting maybe he had a long conversation with Julie.  The roommates who got up and balled Julie out would have noted it if they had to wait  a long time for her to get off before being able to ball her out.  Spending a long time on the phone would be harmful to Jeremy.  His goals were 1) to tell Julie what he had done because he was bursting at the seems from excitement so needed to tell someone and she was his confidant; 2) to get her to claim he called to say he was alerted to trouble at WHF.  his was supposed to be corroboration he actually was alerted to trouble because if he was just pretending then he would not have phoned her to tell her too he only would have told the police such.  He would not take a really long time on the phone doing such.

Even if he had pre-discussed with Julie that he was going to call her to falsely say he received a distress call from WHF he would not have stayed on the phone long. The call was even shorter because Julie was not fully awake so she didn't react and if she had reacted it could have prolonged the conversation by a half minute maybe but big deal.  He didn't anticipate having a long conversation with her.

She was half asleep still so didn't elaborate on the trouble he said he was alerted to. He might very well have told her in this message that Nevill called saying Sheila had the gun but not remembered it.  She said that he told her in his second call about Julie and the gun but maybe he told her in both.  It is doubtful he used the exact words there is trouble at WHF and that's it. he exact words don't matter though what matter is the import of the message. The import of the message was his claim he was alerted by  phone to trouble at WHF.

She said that in advance of the murders he told her that his plan would involve a call from WHF but she didn't entirely understand him.  Whether that is because he didn't explain it in full or because she wasn't listening fully trying to fully follow him who knows. It is highly doubtful though that he told her he planned to call her to say he received a call and would use her to help back up his story.  That seemed to be something he decided to do spontaneously or planned at some point but didn't let her in on that part.  If he actually involved her then he would have said I am going to call you and you can pretend I told you that I received a distress call...  He would not need to actually say it they could talk about other stuff. "Hi things went like clockwork I'm going to call the police now you make sure you remember what to tell them. Bye."  Did she lie and is that what he actually said to her?  It is always a slight possibility but there is nothing to prove she lied and that this is what he really said and I see no reason to disbelieve her.

He told her the call had lasted 17 minutes.

[scipio_usmc]

He told her the call had lasted 17 minutes.

That was the call on the evening of the 6th not the call after the murders. The call to her after the murders ended up backfiring and being suspicious but had to be short because if it were long it would be even more obvious it was a farce.

What is clear from the 17 minute call is he was pissed off about the tribulations of farm work and that helped convince himself to go through with the murders.

[Jane]

I think she was telling the truth here 

I think she was certainly telling some truth. But what I find confusing is that after a 17-20 minute phone call, during which he tells her he's going to kill his family, she goes to bed and goes to sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!until the telephone wakes her circa 3.30 and she answers it. She says she felt "very dozy and I suppose I was only half awake"!!!!!!!!! He has told her that he's going to kill his family and she goes to bed and goes to sleep