Colin said he would have killed June

[Jane]

Are you thinking of writing a book ?

Is that better, Lookout? :D

[lookout]

Is that better, Lookout? :D

Affirmative.

[scipio_usmc]

He knew her - we don't, it's SIMPLY a possibility.

We know she depended on her parents for financial support and her father for emotional support.  We know that her doctor said she was extremely close to him.  We know her doctor said her relationship with her mother was improving and was better than it had been in years.

He would have to expect the possibility (and even likelihood) that if he approached her saying he wanted her to help kill them both that she would tell someone before he had the chance to carry it out.
That would ruin his long term planning.  Why would he do that?  What aid would she be able to bring to the table in helping?

Engaging her help so that she would make sure they switch beds would not help at all. In any event the evidence establishes they didn't switch beds but rather that both parents were attacked in the master bedroom and that this was the start of the event.

If people want to ponder they can ponder whether Jeremy ran away immediately after the gun was empty to reload or Nevill somehow got passed him and fled.  They could wonder whether there was a mini physical fight in the bedroom where both parents went after him and he punched the or the fleeing to the kitchen was immediate.  These are variables that we can't be sure of so people can ponder them.

Unless Jeremy decided to talk honestly no one is ever going to get an answer though.  The wondering of which of these happened will never be answered no matter how much we ponder it. I accept that.  I face the things that we will never know and since it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things I don't worry about it.  People who have so much curiosity that they have to know everything no matter how trivial do care but caring won't make them able to figure out which of the possible variables is the one that happened so it still accomplishes little except driving them crazy that they will never know. 

[Jane]

We know she depended on her parents for financial support and her father for emotional support.  We know that her doctor said she was extremely close to him.  We know her doctor said her relationship with her mother was improving and was better than it had been in years.

He would have to expect the possibility (and even likelihood) that if he approached her saying he wanted her to help kill them both that she would tell someone before he had the chance to carry it out.
That would ruin his long term planning.  Why would he do that?  What aid would she be able to bring to the table in helping?

Engaging her help so that she would make sure they switch beds would not help at all. In any event the evidence establishes they didn't switch beds but rather that both parents were attacked in the master bedroom and that this was the start of the event.

If people want to ponder they can ponder whether Jeremy ran away immediately after the gun was empty to reload or Nevill somehow got passed him and fled.  They could wonder whether there was a mini physical fight in the bedroom where both parents went after him and he punched the or the fleeing to the kitchen was immediate.  These are variables that we can't be sure of so people can ponder them.

Unless Jeremy decided to talk honestly no one is ever going to get an answer though.  The wondering of which of these happened will never be answered no matter how much we ponder it. I accept that.  I face the things that we will never know and since it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things I don't worry about it.  People who have so much curiosity that they have to know everything no matter how trivial do care but caring won't make them able to figure out which of the possible variables is the one that happened so it still accomplishes little except driving them crazy that they will never know.

She may well have been getting on better with June when Dr Ferguson last spoke with her but how would he possibly know how the relationship would be eighteen weeks down the line after Sheila had met and bonded with her biological mother in a way she never had with June? It MAY be a possibility that Jeremy was able to persuade her that with June and Neville out of the way that she'd be free to make a new life near Christine, in Canada. As Caroline said, it's a possibility. It's NOT set in stone.

[scipio_usmc]

She may well have been getting on better with June when Dr Ferguson last spoke with her but how would he possibly know how the relationship would be eighteen weeks down the line after Sheila had met and bonded with her biological mother in a way she never had with June? It MAY be a possibility that Jeremy was able to persuade her that with June and Neville out of the way that she'd be free to make a new life near Christine, in Canada. As Caroline said, it's a possibility. It's NOT set in stone.

It's totally unrealistic it is as far fetched a possibility as the things Mike comes up with.  No way in hell did Jeremy trust her with a gun. His plan didn't require her aid in any way, shape or form- all telling her about his plan could have accomplished would be ruining it because she could have told someone.  The risk of her telling someone would be enormous because it would mean he would have to abandon his plans.  If she talked and he carried the plans out anyway then people would know he did it so it would be pointless in going through with it.

[Jane]

She may well have been getting on better with June when Dr Ferguson last spoke with her but how would he possibly know how the relationship would be eighteen weeks down the line after Sheila had met and bonded with her biological mother in a way she never had with June? It MAY be a possibility that Jeremy was able to persuade her that with June and Neville out of the way that she'd be free to make a new life near Christine, in Canada. As Caroline said, it's a possibility. It's NOT set in stone.

It's totally unrealistic it is as far fetched a possibility as the things Mike comes up with.  No way in hell did Jeremy trust her with a gun. His plan didn't require her aid in any way, shape or form- all telling her about his plan could have accomplished would be ruining it because she could have told someone.  The risk of her telling someone would be enormous because it would mean he would have to abandon his plans.  If she talked and he carried the plans out anyway then people would know he did it so it would be pointless in going through with it.

I think you may have addressed the above to the wrong person. It bears no relation to anything I said.

[Caroline]

We know she depended on her parents for financial support and her father for emotional support.  We know that her doctor said she was extremely close to him.  We know her doctor said her relationship with her mother was improving and was better than it had been in years.

He would have to expect the possibility (and even likelihood) that if he approached her saying he wanted her to help kill them both that she would tell someone before he had the chance to carry it out.
That would ruin his long term planning.  Why would he do that?  What aid would she be able to bring to the table in helping?

Engaging her help so that she would make sure they switch beds would not help at all. In any event the evidence establishes they didn't switch beds but rather that both parents were attacked in the master bedroom and that this was the start of the event.

If people want to ponder they can ponder whether Jeremy ran away immediately after the gun was empty to reload or Nevill somehow got passed him and fled.  They could wonder whether there was a mini physical fight in the bedroom where both parents went after him and he punched the or the fleeing to the kitchen was immediate.  These are variables that we can't be sure of so people can ponder them.

Unless Jeremy decided to talk honestly no one is ever going to get an answer though.  The wondering of which of these happened will never be answered no matter how much we ponder it. I accept that.  I face the things that we will never know and since it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things I don't worry about it.  People who have so much curiosity that they have to know everything no matter how trivial do care but caring won't make them able to figure out which of the possible variables is the one that happened so it still accomplishes little except driving them crazy that they will never know.

How does the evidence establish that Nevill was attacked in the main bedroom? None of his blood is in the main bedroom and his body was found downstairs. Both Sheila and June were found in the main bedroom with no explanation of why Sheila would be there and she was found on the side of the bed (on the floor - to avoid confusion) where Nevill would usually have slept. In fact there is no evidence to show that Nevill was even in the main bedroom that night. The only blood upstairs from Nevill was found outside Sheila's room.

I didn't say that her being in the main bedroom was part of any plan - don't know where you got that from.

[scipio_usmc]

How does the evidence establish that Nevill was attacked in the main bedroom? None of his blood is in the main bedroom and his body was found downstairs. Both Sheila and June were found in the main bedroom with no explanation of why Sheila would be there and she was found on the side of the bed (on the floor - to avoid confusion) where Nevill would usually have slept. In fact there is no evidence to show that Nevill was even in the main bedroom that night. The only blood upstairs from Nevill was found outside Sheila's room.

I didn't say that her being in the main bedroom was part of any plan - don't know where you got that from.

The bullet that grazed him was in the bedroom as were the shell casings associated with the 4 shots he received there.

His blood was found in the hall further proving he was wounded up there.  His blood was also on the wall on the way to the kitchen.  The only reason the struggle happened in the kitchen is because the gun was empty and this is why the struggle happened before the 4 shots that were fired in the kitchen.

[Caroline]

The bullet that grazed him was in the bedroom as were the shell casings associated with the 4 shots he received there.

His blood was found in the hall further proving he was wounded up there.  His blood was also on the wall on the way to the kitchen.  The only reason the struggle happened in the kitchen is because the gun was empty and this is why the struggle happened before the 4 shots that were fired in the kitchen.

That establishes that the shooter was in the main bedroom and fired at him from there, not that Nevill was. Most of the casings were found near the door and a couple just outside. The only two found on Nevill's side of the bed were those used to kill Sheila. Clearly Nevill would enter the bedroom when he realised what was happening where he could easily have received the 4 shots before heading downstairs. This coud explain why there is a heavy distribution of casings around the area doorway.

[scipio_usmc]

That establishes that the shooter was in the main bedroom and fired at him from there, not that Nevill was. Most of the casings were found near the door and a couple just outside. The only two found on Nevill's side of the bed were those used to kill Sheila. Clearly Nevill would enter the bedroom when he realised what was happening where he could easily have received the 4 shots before heading downstairs. This coud explain why there is a heavy distribution of casings around the area doorway.

The bullet grazing him proves he was in the bedroom when it grazed him.  If he were shot in the hall when it grazed him then the bullet would have been in the hall. All 4 shots including the graze wound were fired with Nevill's left profile facing the killer.  His front would have been facing the killer if he was in the hall.  The shots to Nevill were too close for the shooter to have been anywhere except the door way if Nevill was in the hall. Shooting in the doorway would result in the shells being in the hall, further inside would result in them being around the chair. Moreover, the lip wound and shoulder wound both feature a down trajectory.  The killer was standing at a higher vantage than Nevill. Unless the shooter was standing on something it means Nevill was not fully upright.  This supports Nevill being shot while sitting on the bed or as he was getting out of bed. The distribution of the casings supports the shooter being near the foot of the bed shooting June from the right side and turning to shoot Nevill then which would target his left side.  Some casings that landed on the bedspread either bounced off or were thrown off when June got up out of bed. Only 1 casing stayed on the bed after June got up. The casings from shooting Nevill as he was getting out of bed or sitting on it would go to June's side of the bed because they eject forward to the right. At least 8 casings were fired with June in bed and Nevill sitting in bed or as he was getting out. That means 8 casings should have been on June's side of the bed or on the floor next to her side of the bed. There unsurprisingly are 8 casings there. The 3 oddball casings are associated with the shot between her eyes (DRH/13) and most likely the 2 chest wounds (DRH/3&4).  Either the shooter moved to fire at a different angle or June moved causing the shooter to move slightly so as to cause the different angle so the 2 casings landed more towards the door. The location of the casings suggests she was getting out of bed when these 2 were fired. Only the 2 chest wounds could have been delivered as she was getting out of bed or actually out of bed so that is why DRH/3&4 are most likely associated with such wounds.

[Jan]

The bullet grazing him proves he was in the bedroom when it grazed him.  If he were shot in the hall when it grazed him then the bullet would have been in the hall. All 4 shots including the graze wound were fired with Nevill's left profile facing the killer.  His front would have been facing the killer if he was in the hall.  The shots to Nevill were too close for the shooter to have been anywhere except the door way if Nevill was in the hall. Shooting in the doorway would result in the shells being in the hall, further inside would result in them being around the chair. Moreover, the lip wound and shoulder wound both feature a down trajectory.  The killer was standing at a higher vantage than Nevill. Unless the shooter was standing on something it means Nevill was not fully upright.  This supports Nevill being shot while sitting on the bed or as he was getting out of bed. The distribution of the casings supports the shooter being near the foot of the bed shooting June from the right side and turning to shoot Nevill then which would target his left side.  Some casings that landed on the bedspread either bounced off or were thrown off when June got up out of bed. Only 1 casing stayed on the bed after June got up. The casings from shooting Nevill as he was getting out of bed or sitting on it would go to June's side of the bed because they eject forward to the right. At least 8 casings were fired with June in bed and Nevill sitting in bed or as he was getting out. That means 8 casings should have been on June's side of the bed or on the floor next to her side of the bed. There unsurprisingly are 8 casings there. The 3 oddball casings are associated with the shot between her eyes (DRH/13) and most likely the 2 chest wounds (DRH/3&4).  Either the shooter moved to fire at a different angle or June moved causing the shooter to move slightly so as to cause the different angle so the 2 casings landed more towards the door. The location of the casings suggests she was getting out of bed when these 2 were fired. Only the 2 chest wounds could have been delivered as she was getting out of bed or actually out of bed so that is why DRH/3&4 are most likely associated with such wounds.

I am getting confused here between casings and bullets -- and I am very confused how the casings were found where they were in Sheilas shots considering where people think the shooter was.

[scipio_usmc]

I am getting confused here between casings and bullets -- and I am very confused how the casings were found where they were in Sheilas shots considering where people think the shooter was.

I don't know if this mean you are confused because you not understand in full the difference between a casing and a bullet or something else.

When a gun is fired the bullet separates from the case.  The bullet flies out of the barrel. In an automatic or semi-auto the casing is automatically removed from the chamber and ejected from the ejection port on the side of the weapon after the shot is fired.  In most other weapons they have to be manually ejected and loaded.  For instance with a bolt or lever actions rifle you manually work the bolt or lever and that results in the shell being ejected and a new round being fed into the chamber. With the exception of rare left handed weapons the ejection is to the right. The shell ejects right and forward of the Anschutz. If you were firing it and want to use the direction of a compass then it would eject to your Northeast. If you wanted to use a clock it would be 1-2 O'clock from the weapon. The bullet would travel at 12 O'clock because it comes straight out of the weapon.

Sheila was shot while seated on the ground.  It was in a confined area. If she was seated against the night stand then the casings hit the side of the bed and bounced. If they hit the side of something they will bounce around. There are some disputes over the location of 1 casing.  Some police say it was under her other police say it was to her left.  What has been publicly released hasn't resolved the issue. In theory if she shot herself both casing should be in the corner of this wall:



But the closer she was to the nightstand the more the chance of the shells hitting a wall with enough force to ricochet far off from it. The further away from the wall the less momentum the shell will have and the softer the hit so it could end up not going far from the wall. The location of the 2 shells near Sheila don't equate with where they would naturally land without ricocheting off of something. It makes no difference whether she would be shooting herself or someone shooting her the location of the shells had to be the result of a ricochet.  It is unlikely it would ricochet from the corner to the left of her body and the only way it could get under her would be if her body was moved so this is whey either way the location of the 1 casing was highly suspicious. Just to add more to the mix the more the door was opened the better the chance of the door deflect the casings and then not being able to reach the wall. We have no idea what position the door was in when Sheila was shot.

Suppose someone were at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the edge of the bed getting up.  The casings would be apt to land on June or if the gun is close enough to bounce off the wall in back of June.  In order to hit June's right side the shooter could not be directly in front of June but had to be towards the middle of the bed or even at the foot in front of Nevill's side.  That would filter the casings into the corner where most were found. Either June moved/was moving out of bed so the killer had to shift or the killer decided to shift for some other reason to a slightly different angle for the casings to get near the door.  I can't draw well but this is a very rudimentary illustration of where the casing would go (the blue arrows) vis a vis a bullet (red arrows)



 

 

[Jan]

I don't know if this mean you are confused because you not understand in full the difference between a casing and a bullet or something else.

When a gun is fired the bullet separates from the case.  The bullet flies out of the barrel. In an automatic or semi-auto the casing is automatically removed from the chamber and ejected from the ejection port on the side of the weapon after the shot is fired.  In most other weapons they have to be manually ejected and loaded.  For instance with a bolt or lever actions rifle you manually work the bolt or lever and that results in the shell being ejected and a new round being fed into the chamber. With the exception of rare left handed weapons the ejection is to the right. The shell ejects right and forward of the Anschutz. If you were firing it and want to use the direction of a compass then it would eject to your Northeast. If you wanted to use a clock it would be 1-2 O'clock from the weapon. The bullet would travel at 12 O'clock because it comes straight out of the weapon.

Sheila was shot while seated on the ground.  It was in a confined area. If she was seated against the night stand then the casings hit the side of the bed and bounced. If they hit the side of something they will bounce around. There are some disputes over the location of 1 casing.  Some police say it was under her other police say it was to her left.  What has been publicly released hasn't resolved the issue. In theory if she shot herself both casing should be in the corner of this wall:



But the closer she was to the nightstand the more the chance of the shells hitting a wall with enough force to ricochet far off from it. The further away from the wall the less momentum the shell will have and the softer the hit so it could end up not going far from the wall. The location of the 2 shells near Sheila don't equate with where they would naturally land without ricocheting off of something. It makes no difference whether she would be shooting herself or someone shooting her the location of the shells had to be the result of a ricochet.  It is unlikely it would ricochet from the corner to the left of her body and the only way it could get under her would be if her body was moved so this is whey either way the location of the 1 casing was highly suspicious. Just to add more to the mix the more the door was opened the better the chance of the door deflect the casings and then not being able to reach the wall. We have no idea what position the door was in when Sheila was shot.

Suppose someone were at the foot of the bed shooting at Nevill as he was sitting on the edge of the bed getting up.  The casings would be apt to land on June or if the gun is close enough to bounce off the wall in back of June.  In order to hit June's right side the shooter could not be directly in front of June but had to be towards the middle of the bed or even at the foot in front of Nevill's side.  That would filter the casings into the corner where most were found. Either June moved/was moving out of bed so the killer had to shift or the killer decided to shift for some other reason to a slightly different angle for the casings to get near the door.  I can't draw well but this is a very rudimentary illustration of where the casing would go (the blue arrows) vis a vis a bullet (red arrows)

No I do know the difference - it was the way you wrote in your post  about why Neville was shot in the bedroom not from within the bedroom that confused me.

[scipio_usmc]

No I do know the difference - it was the way you wrote in your post  about why Neville was shot in the bedroom not from within the bedroom that confused me.

The bullet that grazed Nevill's body grazed his arm and chest like this moving fromt he left side of his body to the right:



If Nevill were standing in the hall right outside the door facing the stairway instead of facing the room his body would be in the right position but in that case the bullet would have ended up in the hall because it would travel out the bedroom door scrape across his body and end up somewhere to the right of his body.

There is no way for him to be in the hall with his left profile facing the shooter and yet the bullet to get in the bedroom.  Nevill had to be shot in the bedroom in order for the bullet to end up in the bedroom.

Hammersley said the bullet that grazed Nevill (DRH/5) was found next to the chair that was sticking out that had clothing on it. The natural location for it to get there would be Nevill standing at the foot of the bed facing the bed and Jeremy to be standing on Nevill's side of the bed. It seems odd that Jeremy would let Nevill run by him so would appear to me that the bullet ricocheted from somewhere to land there.  Only Jeremy could tell us if there was a mini-altercation in the bedroom and Nevill was able to pass by him while the gun still had a bullet in it and he was able to get another shot off that grazed him. The casing though associated with such a shot should be to the left of the chair and there is none.  That further supports the bullet ricocheted there. If we were talking about a high powered weapon it would go into the wall or floor but we are not. We are talking about something that deflects rather easily.

   

[Caroline]

The bullet that grazed Nevill's body grazed his arm and chest like this moving fromt he left side of his body to the right:



If Nevill were standing in the hall right outside the door facing the stairway instead of facing the room his body would be in the right position but in that case the bullet would have ended up in the hall because it would travel out the bedroom door scrape across his body and end up somewhere to the right of his body.

There is no way for him to be in the hall with his left profile facing the shooter and yet the bullet to get in the bedroom.  Nevill had to be shot in the bedroom in order for the bullet to end up in the bedroom.

Hammersley said the bullet that grazed Nevill (DRH/5) was found next to the chair that was sticking out that had clothing on it. The natural location for it to get there would be Nevill standing at the foot of the bed facing the bed and Jeremy to be standing on Nevill's side of the bed. It seems odd that Jeremy would let Nevill run by him so would appear to me that the bullet ricocheted from somewhere to land there.  Only Jeremy could tell us if there was a mini-altercation in the bedroom and Nevill was able to pass by him while the gun still had a bullet in it and he was able to get another shot off that grazed him. The casing though associated with such a shot should be to the left of the chair and there is none.  That further supports the bullet ricocheted there. If we were talking about a high powered weapon it would go into the wall or floor but we are not. We are talking about something that deflects rather easily.

   

Exactly! Jeremy wouldn't let Nevill run by him so it makes more sense for Nevill to be standing just inside the door (I didn't say he didn't enter the bedroom). IF he was staying in Sheila's room he would obviously come into the bedroom if he heard a commotion. It explains why there are no casings on the other side of the room relating to Nevill and how he managed to escape to the kitchen.