Author Topic: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:  (Read 10108 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 12:58:AM »
That's interesting, why do you believe so?

I thought the court established it was more likely to have been his dad?
Well he got off because of suggested incest between the dad and the daughter Laniet,but this was a complete red herring.

Offline Steve_uk

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Offline David1819

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 01:02:AM »
Well he got off because of suggested incest between the dad and the daughter Laniet,but this was a complete red herring.

How can you be so sure of that?

Surely it must have come down to forensics rather than an accusation of incest.


Offline Steve_uk

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 01:23:AM »
How can you be so sure of that?

Surely it must have come down to forensics rather than an accusation of incest.
Laniet made up stories. For example she told someone she was pregnant by a black man. The weight of evidence against David Bain is more conclusive than the Jeremy Bamber case. He shot his parents,brother and two sisters. No other scenario is at all feasible and he would have rotted in jail(to use the cliché) had it not been for wealthy benefactor and former All Black national hero Joe Karam.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 01:45:AM »
Laniet made up stories. For example she told someone she was pregnant by a black man. The weight of evidence against David Bain is more conclusive than the Jeremy Bamber case. He shot his parents,brother and two sisters. No other scenario is at all feasible and he would have rotted in jail(to use the cliché) had it not been for wealthy benefactor and former All Black national hero Joe Karam.

Sheila Bamber:
A) No physical evidence she loaded a gun, fired a gun or beat Nevill though such would exist had she done so
B) Could not have fired the gun with he moderator attached and then put it away
C) Did not know how to use the murder weapon
D) after her death was moved by someone while her blood was still wet
E) had a Bible placed in a pool of her blood that formed after she died
F) Julie implicated Jeremy
G) No suicide note

Robin Bain
A) was never tested to see whether he loaded or fired a weapon.  However photos have since been found of his hands which have tell tale arks that he loaded them.  It is the exact kind of marks they looked for on Sheila's hands but could not find.
B) His weapon was short enough to shoot himself with the moderator attached and the moderator was not removed afterwards
C) knew how to use the weapon
Nothing remotely equivalent to D, E and F.
G) suicide note

Saying there is more evidence than against Jeremy doesn't work at all and I didn't even mention all the evidence against Jeremy just the evidence proving Sheila can't have done it versus evidence Bain could have and most likely did do it.

 


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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 12:18:PM »
Sheila Bamber:
A) No physical evidence she loaded a gun, fired a gun or beat Nevill though such would exist had she done so
B) Could not have fired the gun with he moderator attached and then put it away
C) Did not know how to use the murder weapon
D) after her death was moved by someone while her blood was still wet
E) had a Bible placed in a pool of her blood that formed after she died
F) Julie implicated Jeremy
G) No suicide note

Robin Bain
A) was never tested to see whether he loaded or fired a weapon.  However photos have since been found of his hands which have tell tale arks that he loaded them.  It is the exact kind of marks they looked for on Sheila's hands but could not find.
B) His weapon was short enough to shoot himself with the moderator attached and the moderator was not removed afterwards
C) knew how to use the weapon
Nothing remotely equivalent to D, E and F.
G) suicide note

Saying there is more evidence than against Jeremy doesn't work at all and I didn't even mention all the evidence against Jeremy just the evidence proving Sheila can't have done it versus evidence Bain could have and most likely did do it.
Scipio you are wrong on this one and I urge you to study the counterspin.nz site again and get back to me. http://www.marzuka.x10.mx/bain/id=1174441/David%20Bain%20why%20he%20is%20most%20prob%28id=1174441%29.html
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 01:05:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 03:30:PM »
Scipio you are wrong on this one and I urge you to study the counterspin.nz site again and get back to me. http://www.marzuka.x10.mx/bain/id=1174441/David%20Bain%20why%20he%20is%20most%20prob%28id=1174441%29.html

Their site is no better than the Bamber site it is full of distortions. Despite their efforts they do not dent the Binnie Report which establishes reasonable doubt for sure exists and in fact goes further to say he is innocent.  This was before they even found the evidence regarding the loading marks on Robin's fingers.
That issue is treated dishonestly as well. The defense doesn't have to prove the marks were loading marks beyond a reasonable doubt merely to establish it was reasonably plausible they were.  The prosecution needs to prove it is reasonably likely they are not.  The police experts admitted they could not do that.  Because of the way the police took the photos there was no way to be able to accurately establish the truth.  Their failure to analyze his hands for soot and GSR before taking him to the morgue and cleaning his body is mindboggling.  Nor did they analyze the blood on his clothing to see if any of it belonged to the other victims. That makes it impossible to say their blood wasn't present.

They misrepresented the size of the rifle as longer and used that fiction as proof that Robin could have shot himself.  On retrial they changed gears saying it wasn't a contact wound though the coroner said it was and said it was fired too far away for it to have been fired by Robin.  Clearly the shot was in fact a contact wound his blood was in the moderator. Naturally David could have shot Robin at contact range but so could Robin have done so.  Establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on this issue requires proving it is not reasonably likely Robin could have shot himself.

The site still refers to the glasses as David's though the prosecution's own expert said they were his mother's.  This was on of the prosecution's misconduct issues.  Their own expert changed his mid but they failed to note such and used his original assessment that they were David's.  Moreover, the missing lens had been buried and covered in dust it wasn't in the open like claimed. Distortions were used by the prosecution.

This is a prime example of that site's antics:

"It’s completely irrelevant whether you believe David or Robin took in the newspaper on the Monday morning of the murders, the facts are that David said he “did not” and he also said “he could not remember” if the paper was in the box, therefore Ian Binnie has made another shocking error in his failed report by stating that Robin “had already collected the paper before David was home”.

http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/blog/disgraceful-errors-in-ian-binnie%E2%80%99s-discredited-report-help-to-find-robin-bain-guilty

They don't have anything valid to hit the significant conclusions in the Binnie report with so set out to attack minor things that don't matter and then say this calls into question whether he made other errors on important issues.

Who took the paper inside is irrelevant.  We don't know it it had been delivered before Robin went inside or not.  We don't know whether Robin would have bothered taking it in with him or not.  David said he took it in but later said he wasn't positive it was a minor issue so he could no remember. Binnie chose to believe his initial statement that he took it in.  That he did so bears no significance at all since the issue doesn't matter.  This doesn't establish he ignored evidence about anything important.

I care about the main issues not nonsense like this. On those main issues the evidence establishes reasonable doubt. 

The second trial featured vastly different evidence than the first.  For instance the first featured evidence that David's prints were found in the victims' blood on the rifle.  The blood though was unable to be established to be human blood and was most likely animal blood.  The prosecution could thus not prove it was most likely the blood of the victims let alone that it got there during the killings beyond a reasonable doubt.  In the original trial the experts insisted this was the victim's blood.

One of the pieces of evidence in the original trial concerned bloody footprints made while wearing socks.  The jury was told the size matched David in fact David's feet were almost an inch larger it was closer to Robin's size.

David had no injuries till he fainted.  The evidence suggests his injuries resulted from hitting something when he fainted not from a struggle.

The blood on his clothing was not spatter it was transfer meaning he came into contact with blood which there was plenty of in the house. The notion he washed some of him bloody clothing but not all his clothing makes no sense at all.

Witnesses place him arriving home after the computer was turned on to write the confession not before.

The temperature of the bodies seems more consistent with them being killed after he left to do his route not before but the police prevented the taking of core temperatures which would have provided the best information.  The police in so doing ruined their chance of establishing the deaths occurred prior to him leaving.

The notion he killed 4 of them and then left to do his route risking Robin finding the bodies and calling police is absurd.  He would have made sure Robin was dead as well.  That would be like Jeremy killing all except Sheila shortly before she would wake up then leaving and planning to return later to kill her risking her finding the bodies and calling police.

Whether you choose to believe him innocent or not makes no difference at all the fact is that there is nothing to establish his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  That site fails miserably in establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and doesn't honestly discuss the issues.  It is just like the Bamber site only it propagandizes in favor of guilt instead of innocence.



« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 04:10:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 03:32:PM »
Laniet made up stories. For example she told someone she was pregnant by a black man. The weight of evidence against David Bain is more conclusive than the Jeremy Bamber case. He shot his parents,brother and two sisters. No other scenario is at all feasible and he would have rotted in jail(to use the cliché) had it not been for wealthy benefactor and former All Black national hero Joe Karam.

I don't think he's guilty at all Steve - think we both read up on the case around about the same time. We came to different conclusions.
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2015, 04:22:PM »
I don't think he's guilty at all Steve - think we both read up on the case around about the same time. We came to different conclusions.

There are cases where I suspect people are guilty but can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  This is one of those cases where some people suspect such. I think it is dishonest to say the evidence prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt given the evidence. I go further and think he didn't do it because a bunch of things weigh against it including the notion he killed only 4 then ran to do his route planning to kill his father later risking his father would find the bodies, call police and ruin his efforts.

He also could have lied and claimed his father borrowed his gun for a while and left the the trigger lock in his dad's trailer.  A great many things he could have done.  The evidence tends to support the victims were killed after he left to go on his route not before and evidence that he got home after the suicide note was written.  It is odd his father decided to let him live but some do let certain family members live including because they are not around to be killed and they don't want to wait before committing suicide.  He could have wanted David to keep the family name going who knows.

To kill them then go on his route would have enabled him to dispose of the clothing washing it would be stupid. It doesn't fit.   

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2015, 06:13:PM »
There are cases where I suspect people are guilty but can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  This is one of those cases where some people suspect such. I think it is dishonest to say the evidence prove he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt given the evidence. I go further and think he didn't do it because a bunch of things weigh against it including the notion he killed only 4 then ran to do his route planning to kill his father later risking his father would find the bodies, call police and ruin his efforts.

He also could have lied and claimed his father borrowed his gun for a while and left the the trigger lock in his dad's trailer.  A great many things he could have done.  The evidence tends to support the victims were killed after he left to go on his route not before and evidence that he got home after the suicide note was written.  It is odd his father decided to let him live but some do let certain family members live including because they are not around to be killed and they don't want to wait before committing suicide.  He could have wanted David to keep the family name going who knows.

To kill them then go on his route would have enabled him to dispose of the clothing washing it would be stupid. It doesn't fit.   

 
I despair when two sensible people come to that conclusion. David couldn't emulate his father in the same way Jeremy could never hope to emulate Nevill. Maybe Robert was depressed but he would never have killed his eldest daughter Arawa,who was following in her father's footsteps training to be a teacher and most likely the one to be a success. David Bain said he heard his sister Laniet gurgling,so was present at some stage when she was still alive. One of the lenses came out of his glasses as Stephen his younger brother fought for his life by putting a hand over the gun. David's bloodied clothing everywhere including a bloodied palm print on the washing machine where he tried to dispose of the evidence. He had told a friend a few months before the murders that a paper round would be a good subterfuge to rape someone during that time. He was the one who had suffered the most academically when the family returned from Papua New Guinea and was struggling to come to terms with his failure and his siblings' successes. He blamed this on his father.

Who knows how long this idea had been germinating in his head,but it came to the fore when he got a part in the school production of Oedipus Rex,where Oeidipus kills his father Laius..

Offline Adam

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2015, 06:45:PM »
Scipio you are wrong on this one and I urge you to study the counterspin.nz site again and get back to me. http://www.marzuka.x10.mx/bain/id=1174441/David%20Bain%20why%20he%20is%20most%20prob%28id=1174441%29.html

Do you think Julie would have been amazingly brave, optimistic, vindictive and stupid enough to approach the police and try to frame an innocent Jeremy. Believing her lies alone would be enough.

I would have thought the threat of prosecution for making up lies would have put her off. But no.

Don't laugh, because that's what supporters believe. Why ? Because Julie was apparently jilted.

 ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 06:49:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2015, 07:01:PM »
I despair when two sensible people come to that conclusion. David couldn't emulate his father in the same way Jeremy could never hope to emulate Nevill. Maybe Robert was depressed but he would never have killed his eldest daughter Arawa,who was following in her father's footsteps training to be a teacher and most likely the one to be a success. David Bain said he heard his sister Laniet gurgling,so was present at some stage when she was still alive. One of the lenses came out of his glasses as Stephen his younger brother fought for his life by putting a hand over the gun. David's bloodied clothing everywhere including a bloodied palm print on the washing machine where he tried to dispose of the evidence. He had told a friend a few months before the murders that a paper round would be a good subterfuge to rape someone during that time. He was the one who had suffered the most academically when the family returned from Papua New Guinea and was struggling to come to terms with his failure and his siblings' successes. He blamed this on his father.

Who knows how long this idea had been germinating in his head,but it came to the fore when he got a part in the school production of Oedipus Rex,where Oeidipus kills his father Laius..

You seem to forget that Caroline and I are in the majority not the minority on whether he could be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Most of what you raise are theories why you suspect him not anything that actually proves he did it.  To the limited extent you do try to cite actual evidence you are not going by the trial testimony.  At trial the coroner admitted Laniet could have survived an extended period and thus could have been making noises when he arrived home.

I don't know whether Laniet lied or not but people believed her, his reputation was in shambles and he was marriage was in shambles he was stuck sleeping in a trailer.  There is no way anyone could say for sure he would not commit suicide and murder.  In fact feeling wronged by a lying daughter and family he considered ungrateful etc could very well push him over the edge. 

The scene had blood around that David touched thus got on his clothing and hand that is how he left the palm print on the washing machine.  Nothing establishes he got blood on himself during the murders.  If he had spatter on his clothing or body that would prove he was there during the murders but he didn't.

Police didn't test Robin's clothing for foreign blood so it can't be said he didn't have any on him. 

In using the same exact principles I use in the Bamber case and all other murders objectively there is not enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2015, 07:40:PM »
You seem to forget that Caroline and I are in the majority not the minority on whether he could be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Most of what you raise are theories why you suspect him not anything that actually proves he did it.  To the limited extent you do try to cite actual evidence you are not going by the trial testimony.  At trial the coroner admitted Laniet could have survived an extended period and thus could have been making noises when he arrived home.

I don't know whether Laniet lied or not but people believed her, his reputation was in shambles and he was marriage was in shambles he was stuck sleeping in a trailer.  There is no way anyone could say for sure he would not commit suicide and murder.  In fact feeling wronged by a lying daughter and family he considered ungrateful etc could very well push him over the edge. 

The scene had blood around that David touched thus got on his clothing and hand that is how he left the palm print on the washing machine.  Nothing establishes he got blood on himself during the murders.  If he had spatter on his clothing or body that would prove he was there during the murders but he didn't.

Police didn't test Robin's clothing for foreign blood so it can't be said he didn't have any on him. 

In using the same exact principles I use in the Bamber case and all other murders objectively there is not enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Robin would have had blood on his clothing from the struggle with son Stephen,who fought desperately for his life but was not allowed to live because David had to fulfil his fantasies. There is no credible scenario how Robin shot himself that morning. David told the emergency services that they were all dead,then later admitted he had not been in all the rooms. I really do urge members who are interested in the case to familiarize themselves a little more with it. http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence-david

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: An innocent Jeremy = an amazingly brave (and stupid) Julie:
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2015, 09:18:PM »
Robin would have had blood on his clothing from the struggle with son Stephen,who fought desperately for his life but was not allowed to live because David had to fulfil his fantasies. There is no credible scenario how Robin shot himself that morning. David told the emergency services that they were all dead,then later admitted he had not been in all the rooms. I really do urge members who are interested in the case to familiarize themselves a little more with it. http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/evidence-david

Robin had blood on his hands that were not tested, his fingernails and material under them were destroyed instead of tested and he had marks on his hands that either were injuries during a struggle with others or marks from loading the weapon. The blood stained sweater would have fit him but was too small for David and was not owned by David.  He touched that blood stained sweater when he went to wash it. That is the only blood that was on him- blood from transfer.  No spatter was found.

You are allowing your own presuppositions of who would commit the crime dictate how you view the evidence.  I view it form a clean slate looking at where it leads and it doesn't establish anything close to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  Reasonable doubt abounds.

Have you only read counterspin or have you actually looked at the evidence presented in court during his acquittal and the Binnie report??

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry