The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)

[lookout]

I find the Bible unconvincing, I don't really understand why it's there.  It seems to have arrived there by accident or was staged, its too predictable.

Maggie,I feel that June had the Bible in her hand when she got out of bed,as it seems that she did read it before going to sleep and may possibly have been quoting a few passages meant for Sheila's benefit.
No doubt it would have been read to the twins before they went to sleep too,so it would have been in the vicinity.

[Roch]

It doesn't say anything about blood on the inside of her hand and clearly doesn't speak to such because he said the blood he is referring to was transferred to her gown.  His notes were for his benefit and he knew what he meant by such.  He elaborated in detial for the benefit of others in his autosly report which was for the benefit of others.  He explained in detail no blood was on the inside of her hands or fingers.  The only blood was her wrist area and it was the blood on the outer area that transferred to her gown because that is the part of her hand that was touching her gown.

I actually set out to fully comprehend what people mean.  Doing so enables me to accurately describe what they stated they observed.  Taking his notes which note blood transferred from her right hand to her gown and then saying this proves she had blood everywhere on her right hand is disingenuous.  His notes don't elaborate where the blood was beyond saying it was in a location that transferred to the gown.  We know from other evidence (his autopsy report and also expert evidence form others) that such blood transferred from her outer palm/ outer wrist area.  From testimony of police who saw her hands including those at autopsy we know the inside of her hands and fingers had no blood.  Vanezis wrote the same thing in his autopsy report clarifying no blood was inside her hand only the outside palm wrist area.  That blood got there by her putting her wrist/outer palm to her wound.  The blood then dripped down her arm to her elbow.   This doesn't implicate the inside of her hand at all as having any blood.

This is why sticking her hand on the gun failed to result in any bloody prints to the weapon she had no blood inside her hand or on her fingers.

I do like to be right an din an effort to be right I actually fully consider the evidence before deciding what happened.  I looked at all this evidence as well as the evidence put forth by experts who said blood was underneath the Bible and this is how the stains on the top of both pages got there.  I looked at how the Bible pages were folded over so part of both top pages were on the same exact side above such blood.  I looked at how Jeremy woudl be unlikely to have gloves totally covered in blood but instead spotted with blood and thus a single uninterrupted print would be unlikely and that is how I came to accept the opinion of the experts as accurate that it was made by the Bible being placed in the pool of blood.

I further looked at the location of the door in relation to her body and where the Bible would have to be in order for the close door to be able to push it. The door doesn't extend down far enough to push it nice and even to her body. If anything it would be slanted into her, the door would strike her head before it could push the Bible to where it was and it would likely be angled . In fact it would likely be most close.  Since the Bible is soft covered and the pages so narrow hitting it forces it to close when it is on carpet. The only way I could get a soft covered Bible to slide was by pushing it with a door in a location where there was no carpet. It will slide on tile, it will slide on hardwood floors.  It will not slide on carpet it closes first instead. It closes by going from this:



to this:



Even when it was on a floor and slid as soon as it bumped against something to keep it from sliding ore it would close like in the second photo. The further you push the more it stands up.

I didn't decide in a vacuum what happened I did so looking at the relevant facts and evidence.

Does that mean it's not a palm print?

[scipio_usmc]

I think the Bible was thrown in Sheila's direction by her mother. It would have landed as we saw it,with pages sprawled.

Sheila would have to have been dead before June for that to be possible.  It was over a puddle of blood that formed later. Furthermore if the Bible were there before Sheila died how would it get against her arm in the manner it was?

It is more consistent with it being placed on her arm and sliding off into the pool of blood than it is with being there prior to her dying.  It would be more likely to start to close though in that instance not be the way it was. Maybe Jeremy stuck it on her arm area and it slid off and closed so then he reopened it and stuck it next to her because he could not get it to stay on her.  The gun was in the way of putting it in the middle of her chest the best he could do was stick it on her shoulder area.  I don't think he did such though. It was supposed to look like she read it before she fatally shot herself.  Sticking it on her instead of next to her would demonstrate staging I think even he could see that.

[David1819]

I don't think that will bother Scipio much.

I don't expect it to. The only thing that bothers scipio is being right even when he is wrong. Caroline may find it amusing and I guess it is in small doses but there is a limit 

[lookout]

Sheila would have to have been dead before June for that to be possible.  It was over a puddle of blood that formed later. Furthermore if the Bible were there before Sheila died how would it get against her arm in the manner it was?

It is more consistent with it being placed on her arm and sliding off into the pool of blood than it is with being there prior to her dying.  It would be more likely to start to close though in that instance not be the way it was. Maybe Jeremy stuck it on her arm area and it slid off and closed so then he reopened it and stuck it next to her because he could not get it to stay on her.  The gun was in the way of putting it in the middle of her chest the best he could do was stick it on her shoulder area.  I don't think he did such though. It was supposed to look like she read it before she fatally shot herself.  Sticking it on her instead of next to her would demonstrate staging I think even he could see that.

Mother and daughter died simultaneously !

[scipio_usmc]

Does that mean it's not a palm print?

I would say a definite no given that

1) Police and Vanezis say Sheila had no blood on the inside of her hands let alone enough to leave such a complete impression
2) Jeremy used gloves so would not have blood on his palms to transfer let alone have enough to leave such a complete impression
3) The experts who analyzed the Bible for prints said there were no finger, foot or palm prints in blood
[this is a pretty big issue we can't see detail in the photos they saw the fine details and are experts in the field and assessed it was not a bloody palm print]
(these first 3 eliminate the possibility of it being palm prints made by bare hands)
4) Gloves leave glove prints not bare palm prints.  Jeremy's gloves would not be likely to be totally soaked in blood so as to be able to leave a full impression of the palm area of the glove at best it would likely leave a spotted one
5) There was pooled blood underneath the very area where the page was resting and that provides a plausible way for the blood to have gotten there.

That is my reasoning.

I'm getting criticized for refusing to decide on the basis of a ill defined photo that the experts who analyzed it for prints were wrong when they said there were no prints in blood.  I am simply accepting the existing facts.  The people with an uphill battle are those who wish to prove the experts were wrong.

[Jane]

Mother and daughter died simultaneously !

Meaning they both had a gun? From where did June get hers and what happened to it?

[lookout]

It was a pattern from the doily.

[David1819]

Scipio, I have no objections to you being right -in fact, I commend you for demolishing rubbish- but I have serious doubts about your motives. I CRINGE when you use "hate" "humiliate" "crush", ALL, IMO, quite unnecessary. However, I emphatically DO defend your right to hit out when your religion is attacked.

I didn't attack his religion. He claimed as part of his argument he is a rational being guided by science, reason and logic. Such people don't follow religious doctrine in the absence of evidednce thus indicating he is anything but. If he is offended then I guess he knows how it feels to be those who have faith in Jeremy to be on the receiving end of his comments.

[scipio_usmc]

Mother and daughter died simultaneously !

How does that enable June to toss the Bible so as it would land in the pool of blood that did not form until after Sheila's body was moved flat?

 

[lookout]

How does that enable June to toss the Bible so as it would land in the pool of blood that did not form until after Sheila's body was moved flat?

It wasn't a pool of blood as such or the Bible would have been saturated---------and it wasn't,as the blood came mainly through the handling of it as there was no visible pool of blood on the carpet,just spatters.

[Jane]

I didn't attack his religion. He claimed as part of his argument he is a rational being guided by science, reason and logic. Such people don't follow religious doctrine in the absence of evidednce thus indicating he is anything but. If he is offended then I guess he knows how it feels to be those who have fairy in Jeremy to be on the receiving end of his comments.

I think one's religion is a very sensitive and personal subject. Unless he's lying, it seems he FELT attacked.

[scipio_usmc]

It was a pattern from the doily.

If the doily were soaked in blood and the Bible page placed against it such could leave a design of sorts.  The doily doesn't look like it was under that exact area though and the level of detail in the photo inadequate to see a design.   Also there is nothing to suggest it was soaked in enough blood so that someone touching it and using it as a "glove" to handle the bible to prevent leaving prints on it would be able to leave such mark.

If someone decided to use something to open it to avoid leaving prints what they used had so have blood over a sizable area instead of just spots of blood.  Aside from touching the sizable amount of blood on Sheila's shoulder I don't know how they would get such a sizable amount of blood on it and don't know why they would touch such. I suppose Jeremy could have tried to pick her up underneath her armpits and got a sizable amount of something he was using for protection in such manner. That is about the only thing I can think up to account for such.

[Steve_uk]

I don't see how we can acquaint ourselves fully with any cases without going beyond the dry-as-dust documents which after wading through for an afternoon would drive a saint to drink. You need a balanced approach which involves putting the evidence in context and this requires looking at the bigger picture and listening to what the people on the ground had to say.

[scipio_usmc]

I think one's religion is a very sensitive and personal subject. Unless he's lying, it seems he FELT attacked.

He was mocking me for having a religion instead of being an atheist.  It was indeed an attack.  He could not win a debate on the merits and lashed out in such manner.  That says a great deal about who was being emotional and having ego problems with losing the debate- he claimed it was me but his post demonstrated the inverse.