Author Topic: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)  (Read 41518 times)

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Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #765 on: August 05, 2015, 10:49:AM »
Jane J again another excellent post from you.  Scipio has taken his share of  abuse on this forum and has never complained.  I agree the use of some of his words leaves much to be desired and I honestly think they are empty words with no  personal insults intended it is just the way he is and he has posted more positive information on this forum than negative.
I agree Susan, scipio is far from perfect but he has taken some heavy abuse from some people and dealt really well with it.

Offline Patti

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #766 on: August 05, 2015, 11:08:AM »
Why would Jeremy want to leave a bible at Sheila's side and not his mothers side?

I wonder why the pages were curled up on one side of the bible. Is this consistant with being placed on the floor or by being dragged of shoved whilst on the floor?

Could the door leading to the box room upon being opened by the raid team have caught the bible and shoved it more towards Sheila, thus causing the pages to curl?  :-\ :-\

Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #767 on: August 05, 2015, 11:13:AM »
Why would Jeremy want to leave a bible at Sheila's side and not his mothers side?

I wonder why the pages were curled up on one side of the bible. Is this consistant with being placed on the floor or by being dragged of shoved whilst on the floor?

Could the door leading to the box room upon being opened by the raid team have caught the bible and shoved it more towards Sheila, thus causing the pages to curl?  :-\ :-\
Hi Patti, I agree the bible could have been caught by the door or kicked by some passing size 11 feet.  You would imagine it was a well used book which should have opened easily and laid flat unlike a new book....... we will never know the answer ......
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 11:36:AM by maggie »

Offline Patti

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #768 on: August 05, 2015, 11:22:AM »
Hi Patti, I agree the bible could have been caught by the door or kicked by some passing size 11 feet.  You would imagine it was a well used book which should have opened easily and lain flat unlike a new book....... we will never know the answer ......

Hi Maggie

I'm still convinced that the blood was wet when the bible was closed up and caused a mirror image. If that is the case then the blood had to have been wet at the time the bible was closed.  Its a shame more was not done in 1986 at trial.  Plus we do not know if it is a mirror image, although it looks like it is...the bible is no longer available as is so many items that would benefit us with today's science. Sad really, but you are right we can talk about it till the cows come home, but we will never know the real truth of what happened that night.


Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #769 on: August 05, 2015, 11:22:AM »
I don't need to be right I am right.  His notes simply confirms the same thing she had blood on her outer palm/outer wrist and transferred it to her gown.  Nothing about blood on the inside of her hands.

I posted the experiment already post 732 of this thread.

You're NOT right - your ego just doesn't let you think you're wrong. There is no shame in being wrong now and again!!

The notes don't say 'outer palm' JUST PALM! 'Outer' is your slant. Just like no one mentions 'fine mist'  in connection with the silencer. You obviously haven't read the written notes before and FAR FROM stating that she had no blood on her palm, he clearly states that she did! This changes to no blood on her palm in the written statement.

If she has no blood on her hands and palms why would Venezis write this?

Blood stained PALM print on nightdress. Blood stains appear to have been transferred from R HAND

Both hands not contaminated APART FROM BLOODSTAINS

« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 12:02:PM by Caroline »
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Jan

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #770 on: August 05, 2015, 12:29:PM »
well I know where my palm and wrist are (:

Offline Jan

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #771 on: August 05, 2015, 12:34:PM »
Why would Jeremy want to leave a bible at Sheila's side and not his mothers side?

I wonder why the pages were curled up on one side of the bible. Is this consistant with being placed on the floor or by being dragged of shoved whilst on the floor?

Could the door leading to the box room upon being opened by the raid team have caught the bible and shoved it more towards Sheila, thus causing the pages to curl?  :-\ :-\

that's a good point - I thought  that Sheila was against her mothers strong religious views ( according to Colin ). So what would make Jeremy think of placing the bible on Sheila? Would he of actually known about her seeing Freddie as the Devil etc? And would that have even indicated  to him she would have turned to God at the end?

Also there was still the discrepancy about whether the police would have removed the rifle to make sure it was safe immediately on entering the room before checking she was dead.So if the bible was on her body it would have been moved .

Offline Adam

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #772 on: August 05, 2015, 12:35:PM »
As I said I don't think Scipio will be bothered about David putting him on ignore. He will just reply to David's posts as usual.

It will probably bother David more, knowing his posts are being responded to and he can't read it and respond.

This is why Jan keeps announcing she has put me on ignore. She knew she had to respond to my posts before because they were so damaging to Jeremy. But now has backed herself into a corner where she can't defend him effectively. Or defend my attacks on her posts. A strange move by a supporter.


« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 12:37:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #773 on: August 05, 2015, 12:49:PM »
that's a good point - I thought  that Sheila was against her mothers strong religious views ( according to Colin ). So what would make Jeremy think of placing the bible on Sheila? Would he of actually known about her seeing Freddie as the Devil etc? And would that have even indicated  to him she would have turned to God at the end?

Also there was still the discrepancy about whether the police would have removed the rifle to make sure it was safe immediately on entering the room before checking she was dead.So if the bible was on her body it would have been moved .







I think the Bible was thrown in Sheila's direction by her mother. It would have landed as we saw it,with pages sprawled.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #774 on: August 05, 2015, 12:52:PM »
It would have indicated June's final thoughts before she died.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #775 on: August 05, 2015, 01:06:PM »
that's a good point - I thought  that Sheila was against her mothers strong religious views ( according to Colin ). So what would make Jeremy think of placing the bible on Sheila? Would he of actually known about her seeing Freddie as the Devil etc? And would that have even indicated  to him she would have turned to God at the end?

Also there was still the discrepancy about whether the police would have removed the rifle to make sure it was safe immediately on entering the room before checking she was dead.So if the bible was on her body it would have been moved .

Sheila had referred to religion on several occasions and it could look like she turned to the bible in her suicidal state. No point in leaving the bible next to June - she was a victim and had no control over the situation and no time to grab a bible.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #776 on: August 05, 2015, 01:30:PM »
 June had probably been reading the Bible in bed as she often did to help her sleep,so more than likely it would have been to hand before she fell down dead,managing to throw it in Sheila's direction before doing so. June was the religious one,not Sheila.

Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #777 on: August 05, 2015, 01:35:PM »






I think the Bible was thrown in Sheila's direction by her mother. It would have landed as we saw it,with pages sprawled.
I find the Bible unconvincing, I don't really understand why it's there.  It seems to have arrived there by accident or was staged, its too predictable. :-\
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 01:47:PM by maggie »

Offline susan

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #778 on: August 05, 2015, 02:01:PM »
I find the Bible unconvincing, I don't really understand why it's there.  It seems to have arrived there by accident or was staged, its too predictable. :-\

Maggie  the bible has always puzzled me did it fall on the floor or was it staged if it was staged why?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #779 on: August 05, 2015, 02:12:PM »
You're NOT right - your ego just doesn't let you think you're wrong. There is no shame in being wrong now and again!!

The notes don't say 'outer palm' JUST PALM! 'Outer' is your slant. Just like no one mentions 'fine mist'  in connection with the silencer. You obviously haven't read the written notes before and FAR FROM stating that she had no blood on her palm, he clearly states that she did! This changes to no blood on her palm in the written statement.

If she has no blood on her hands and palms why would Venezis write this?

Blood stained PALM print on nightdress. Blood stains appear to have been transferred from R HAND

Both hands not contaminated APART FROM BLOODSTAINS

It doesn't say anything about blood on the inside of her hand and clearly doesn't speak to such because he said the blood he is referring to was transferred to her gown.  His notes were for his benefit and he knew what he meant by such.  He elaborated in detial for the benefit of others in his autosly report which was for the benefit of others.  He explained in detail no blood was on the inside of her hands or fingers.  The only blood was her wrist area and it was the blood on the outer area that transferred to her gown because that is the part of her hand that was touching her gown.

I actually set out to fully comprehend what people mean.  Doing so enables me to accurately describe what they stated they observed.  Taking his notes which note blood transferred from her right hand to her gown and then saying this proves she had blood everywhere on her right hand is disingenuous.  His notes don't elaborate where the blood was beyond saying it was in a location that transferred to the gown.  We know from other evidence (his autopsy report and also expert evidence form others) that such blood transferred from her outer palm/ outer wrist area.  From testimony of police who saw her hands including those at autopsy we know the inside of her hands and fingers had no blood.  Vanezis wrote the same thing in his autopsy report clarifying no blood was inside her hand only the outside palm wrist area.  That blood got there by her putting her wrist/outer palm to her wound.  The blood then dripped down her arm to her elbow.   This doesn't implicate the inside of her hand at all as having any blood.

This is why sticking her hand on the gun failed to result in any bloody prints to the weapon she had no blood inside her hand or on her fingers.

I do like to be right an din an effort to be right I actually fully consider the evidence before deciding what happened.  I looked at all this evidence as well as the evidence put forth by experts who said blood was underneath the Bible and this is how the stains on the top of both pages got there.  I looked at how the Bible pages were folded over so part of both top pages were on the same exact side above such blood.  I looked at how Jeremy woudl be unlikely to have gloves totally covered in blood but instead spotted with blood and thus a single uninterrupted print would be unlikely and that is how I came to accept the opinion of the experts as accurate that it was made by the Bible being placed in the pool of blood.

I further looked at the location of the door in relation to her body and where the Bible would have to be in order for the close door to be able to push it. The door doesn't extend down far enough to push it nice and even to her body. If anything it would be slanted into her, the door would strike her head before it could push the Bible to where it was and it would likely be angled . In fact it would likely be most close.  Since the Bible is soft covered and the pages so narrow hitting it forces it to close when it is on carpet. The only way I could get a soft covered Bible to slide was by pushing it with a door in a location where there was no carpet. It will slide on tile, it will slide on hardwood floors.  It will not slide on carpet it closes first instead. It closes by going from this:



to this:



Even when it was on a floor and slid as soon as it bumped against something to keep it from sliding ore it would close like in the second photo. The further you push the more it stands up.

I didn't decide in a vacuum what happened I did so looking at the relevant facts and evidence.



 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry