Author Topic: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)  (Read 41530 times)

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Offline Jan

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #735 on: August 04, 2015, 08:14:PM »
I have green hands now. I will soon try to post photos of an experiment that we did. It would be disrespectful to ruin a Bible so we used a magazine owned by one of the ladies.  The only colored fluid we could find was green fluid used for some kind of St Patty's Day thing.  We stuck it on a sheet of paper then folded the magazine page over like the Bible was and stuck the magazine on it.  The blood was deeper under the folded over section than under the left section so I used more green under the folded over part.

The general pattern of the stain is not that different from the one in the Bible.  The magazine has wider pages so it is naturally not perfect but demonstrates the theory works quite well.





 

Wow for someone who knows that JB is guilty that is pretty dedicated research.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #736 on: August 04, 2015, 08:16:PM »
 It looks a bit like the impression of the doily now.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #737 on: August 04, 2015, 08:26:PM »
This is palm print I did a few years ago, I used poster pain so the effect and colour will be slightly different. I used the SAME bible as the one in the picture - look at the shape and the size - my hands are small - so is the bible.

The lines present in your example are not present in the Bible photo which is one of several reasons why it was not determined to be a bloody print which they could try to match to Jeremy or anyone else.  Sheila had no blood on her inside palm even.  Jeremy had gloves on so would not get palm lines form his gloves anyway.  His gloves would have to have been absolutely soaked in blood to leave that much.  They would have had some blood but enough to leave that.

You are doing what Mike did when he decided that marks he saw in photos near the phones are bloody fingerprints.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:38:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #738 on: August 04, 2015, 08:57:PM »
The lines present in your example are not present in the Bible photo which is one of several reasons why it was not determined to be a bloody print which they could try to match to Jeremy or anyone else.  Sheila had no blood on her inside palm even.  Jeremy had gloves on so would not get palm lines form his gloves anyway.  His gloves would have to have been absolutely soaked in blood to leave that much.  They would have had some blood but enough to leave that.

You are doing what Mike did when he decided that marks he saw in photos near the phones are bloody fingerprints.
I have to agree with Caroline the two prints are very alike to me. The fleshy part at the base of the thumb where there seems to have been most pressure shows on both prints imo.

Offline Jan

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #739 on: August 04, 2015, 09:04:PM »
The lines present in your example are not present in the Bible photo which is one of several reasons why it was not determined to be a bloody print which they could try to match to Jeremy or anyone else.  Sheila had no blood on her inside palm even.  Jeremy had gloves on so would not get palm lines form his gloves anyway.  His gloves would have to have been absolutely soaked in blood to leave that much.  They would have had some blood but enough to leave that.

You are doing what Mike did when he decided that marks he saw in photos near the phones are bloody fingerprints.

you are stating something as fact that has never been proven .You can not prove the murderer wore gloves . that is pure assumption

Offline Jane

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #740 on: August 04, 2015, 09:27:PM »
I have to agree with Caroline the two prints are very alike to me. The fleshy part at the base of the thumb where there seems to have been most pressure shows on both prints imo.


I had assumed it was established that it was a palm print. There are times when I'm inclined to feel a little suspicious of Scipio's love of argument combined with, what I suspect is, a pathological NEED to be right ;)

Offline lookout

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #741 on: August 04, 2015, 09:39:PM »

I had assumed it was established that it was a palm print. There are times when I'm inclined to feel a little suspicious of Scipio's love of argument combined with, what I suspect is,




 a pathological NEED to be right ;)


Ooooooooh,I've thought that for a long time now and it gives me the creeps.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #742 on: August 04, 2015, 10:22:PM »

I had assumed it was established that it was a palm print. There are times when I'm inclined to feel a little suspicious of Scipio's love of argument combined with, what I suspect is, a pathological NEED to be right ;)

Since I love to argue I can argue any side of any thing.  As far as being right is concerned, who would intentionally choose a losing argument?  Sometimes you get assigned a loser argument you are stuck making.  When I pick my own I pick the ones best supported.

A) The lab failed to find any bloody fingerprints or palm prints on the Bible. They would be in the best position to know what it was
B) Sheila did not have any blood on her inside palm.
C) Nothing the killer did would result in getting the victim's blood over their entire palm. There was spatter but spatter doesn't coat a hand fully or anything else fully which is why the rifle stock wasn't completely covered the blood was sporadic
D) There was blood under the Bible corresponding to where that stain is and blood corresponding to where the blood on the left page stain is.

Look at how rounded the palm print is and the veins in it.  The stain on the bible is not rounded and doesn't have veins.  The only way a glove could make that kind of stain would be if the entire palm of the glove was covered in blood. If you shoot someone you are not going to get that much blood on your gloves unless you stuck it in a pool of blood first.

Palm prints from shootings are much smaller you only get a small section of the hand or a finger(s)  not a big giant mass.  Unless someone is suggesting Jeremy stuck his hand in a puddle of blood the suggestion doesn't work.

The COA adopted the prosecutions argument that the blood got there from being placed in the pool of blood I didn't think this up myself:

"The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial."

The other fresh evidence they allude to is evidence that Sheila was shot while propped up against something then after she died was dragged flat to dump the rifle on her. 

his evidence helps establish she was murdered.  HOWEVER, it was not able to be used in the appeal for the purposes of proving such. There is no new science at play allowing the prosecution to make these arguments.  The science and factual evidence existed at the time of the trial.  They could have had experts argued about the Bible being placed in her blood after she was dead and being moved after she was dead.  They failed to recognize these arguments and that is their touch luck.  If there were a retrial they could raise such but can't raise such to defeat the need for a retrial.


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #743 on: August 04, 2015, 10:56:PM »
The lines present in your example are not present in the Bible photo which is one of several reasons why it was not determined to be a bloody print which they could try to match to Jeremy or anyone else.  Sheila had no blood on her inside palm even.  Jeremy had gloves on so would not get palm lines form his gloves anyway.  His gloves would have to have been absolutely soaked in blood to leave that much.  They would have had some blood but enough to leave that.

You are doing what Mike did when he decided that marks he saw in photos near the phones are bloody fingerprints.

Rubbish! The two prints look the same! You asked for people to take into account that your experiment used different mediums etc but you're not prepared to make allowances for the fact that I used poster pain and the picture is higher quality. You aren't the oracle here Scip - and your theory on the bible is flimsy. The two prints have almost an identical outline regardless of us having the same palm lines (which is hardly likely). Lets leave it to people to make their own minds up without being rail-roaded by you and your enormous ego.

Where is your experiment?

« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:58:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #744 on: August 04, 2015, 11:03:PM »
The lines present in your example are not present in the Bible photo which is one of several reasons why it was not determined to be a bloody print which they could try to match to Jeremy or anyone else.  Sheila had no blood on her inside palm even. Jeremy had gloves on so would not get palm lines form his gloves anyway.  His gloves would have to have been absolutely soaked in blood to leave that much.  They would have had some blood but enough to leave that.

You are doing what Mike did when he decided that marks he saw in photos near the phones are bloody fingerprints.

Read Venezis written notes! He clearly states that she had blood on her right hand. This was written on 07.09.85 - his later statement says her hands were clean. I'd rather go with his initial findings!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:06:PM by Caroline »
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #745 on: August 04, 2015, 11:12:PM »
I have to agree with Caroline the two prints are very alike to me. The fleshy part at the base of the thumb where there seems to have been most pressure shows on both prints imo.

Exactly - which would be a pressure point. Obviously my hand print lines won't be the same as the print on the bible and my photograph is clearer BUT - the shape is the same. But lets see Scips experiment?
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Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #746 on: August 04, 2015, 11:12:PM »
Rubbish! The two prints look the same! You asked for people to take into account that your experiment used different mediums etc but you're not prepared to make allowances for the fact that I used poster pain and the picture is higher quality. You aren't the oracle here Scip - and your theory on the bible is flimsy. The two prints have almost an identical outline regardless of us having the same palm lines (which is hardly likely). Lets leave it to people to make their own minds up without being rail-roaded by you and your enormous ego.

Where is your experiment?
You cannot expect both prints to be exact copies and am sure you know this scipio. It depends on the pressure exerted on both occasions, on the amount of paint on Caroline's Palm as compared with the amount of blood on the other as to whether the Palm lines show or not. Think there's probably more paint than blood and one photo is very poor quality while the other is clear and fresh. Having said all that imo there's a definite similarity between the shape and contours of the two prints.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:15:PM by maggie »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #747 on: August 04, 2015, 11:39:PM »
Rubbish! The two prints look the same! You asked for people to take into account that your experiment used different mediums etc but you're not prepared to make allowances for the fact that I used poster pain and the picture is higher quality. You aren't the oracle here Scip - and your theory on the bible is flimsy. The two prints have almost an identical outline regardless of us having the same palm lines (which is hardly likely). Lets leave it to people to make their own minds up without being rail-roaded by you and your enormous ego.

Where is your experiment?

My theory has expert support and convinced the judges.  Yours has no expert support and ignores a number of points I raised which doom your suggestion.

You are doing exactly what Mike did with the image he says is a bloody fingerprint.  He ignores that police saw no print and says it has to be one because form the distant photo it looks like one.

You ignore the experts saying there was no bloody prints and decide you know better from a photo than they did from looking in person.

You ignore that underneath the Bible was blood and it corresponds to exactly where the blood was found on the top of both pages.

You ignore that Sheila had no blood on the inside of her palm and Jeremy wore gloves and would not have such a large quantity of blood on his hands or his gloves.

I will stick with the experts and the judges on this. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #748 on: August 04, 2015, 11:44:PM »
My theory has expert support and convinced the judges.  Yours has no expert support and ignores a number of points I raised which doom your suggestion.

You are doing exactly what Mike did with the image he says is a bloody fingerprint.  He ignores that police saw no print and says it has to be one because form the distant photo it looks like one.

You ignore the experts saying there was no bloody prints and decide you know better from a photo than they did from looking in person.

You ignore that underneath the Bible was blood and it corresponds to exactly where the blood was found on the top of both pages.

You ignore that Sheila had no blood on the inside of her palm and Jeremy wore gloves and would not have such a large quantity of blood on his hands or his gloves.

I will stick with the experts and the judges on this.
You always do stick with the expert and judge even though life experience should teach everyone that such people are not infallible.
As Caroline has already stated Vanezis' first handwritten statement said Sheila had blood on the Palm of her hand. As he is a professional, why do you ignore this?

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)
« Reply #749 on: August 05, 2015, 12:40:AM »
My theory has expert support and convinced the judges.  Yours has no expert support and ignores a number of points I raised which doom your suggestion.

You are doing exactly what Mike did with the image he says is a bloody fingerprint.  He ignores that police saw no print and says it has to be one because form the distant photo it looks like one.

You ignore the experts saying there was no bloody prints and decide you know better from a photo than they did from looking in person.

You ignore that underneath the Bible was blood and it corresponds to exactly where the blood was found on the top of both pages.

You ignore that Sheila had no blood on the inside of her palm and Jeremy wore gloves and would not have such a large quantity of blood on his hands or his gloves.

I will stick with the experts and the judges on this.

So what? Did you not read Venezis's written report? I'm not making this shit up Scip - he actually wrote that Sheila had blood on her right hand. You can ignore it or make excuses but that's what he wrote.

Stick with who you like but you haven't doomed anything - that's simply your arrogance showing.

Where is your experiment?
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