The Murders at White House Farm - By Carol Ann Lee (A Taster!)

[Adam]

like I said it does not prove guilt or innocence because it could have been the raid team who moved the bible before the photos

Why would the raid team move the bible ?

You are clutching at straws again.

[scipio_usmc]

No I'm not, how do you know where I'm looking  ? I'm looking at the top and I don't agree with you! Of course some of the blood was hidden by the bible but however far it ultimately reached, it would have extended from Sheila, there would be no gaps. Your theory doesn't work because it doesn't explain why the stain doesn't start at the top corner of the page - there is a gap, then the stain starts (see below). The stain is also TOO well defined to be from the stain on the floor. Finally, for your theory to be correct, there would still be blood on the opposite page because some of that page couldn't fail to touch the blood. The second picture is a top view and the bible isn't raised as much from the bent back pages so more of it is touching the surface area.

Finally (Edit), if the pages are bent back, the corner of the page in question will be situated around where I have drawn the line on the last picture,

Those photos show how the blood pool is at the top like I said.  You can't see the extent of the blood under the top of the Bible because in those photos the Bible is vblocking it.  You have to life the Bible off to see the remainder of the pool.

Those photos are taken from a top profile not side.  The bottom photos I showed are from an angle and thus show the pages folded over.  The folded over pages were under the half of the cover closest to Sheila's body thus IN THE BLOOD.  The beginning of the right page is in the air so not touching the blood pool.  BUT a portion of the right side did touch the pool.  That is why you have blood on the left hand top and right hand top.  Your suggestion it is a palm print doesn't hold any water and was rejected by those who actually looked at the Bible and tested it for bloody prints.

In between the 2 green lines is the portion of the right hand side page which was sitting in blood actually touching the floor.

In between the orange lines is the section of the left hand side which was touching the floor. 

In between the 2 is a gap where nothing was touching the floor there was air.





This is the result:



The result is blood on the top of the left side that was touching the floor.  A gap then the blood on the right sided that was folded over and also touching the floor.  The blood on both sides combined is the size of a page.  If the book had rested perfectly flat in half then all of it would have been on the left side and none of the right but because it was folded over much got on the right side though some got on left anyway because part of the left was still touching the ground, only part to the left side was blocked by the right side being folded over.

[Caroline]

Those photos show how the blood pool is at the top like I said.  You can't see the extent of the blood under the top of the Bible because in those photos the Bible is vblocking it.  You have to life the Bible off to see the remainder of the pool.

Those photos are taken from a top profile not side. The bottom photos I showed are from an angle and thus show the pages folded over. The folded over pages were under the half of the cover closest to Sheila's body thus IN THE BLOOD.  The beginning of the right page is in the air so not touching the blood pool.  BUT a portion of the right side did touch the pool.  That is why you have blood on the left hand top and right hand top.  Your suggestion it is a palm print doesn't hold any water and was rejected by those who actually looked at the Bible and tested it for bloody prints.

In between the 2 green lines is the portion of the right hand side page which was sitting in blood actually touching the floor.

In between the orange lines is the section of the left hand side which was touching the floor. 

In between the 2 is a gap where nothing was touching the floor there was air.





This is the result:



The result is blood on the top of the left side that was touching the floor.  A gap then the blood on the right sided that was folded over and also touching the floor.  The blood on both sides combined is the size of a page.  If the book had rested perfectly flat in half then all of it would have been on the left side and none of the right but because it was folded over much got on the right side though some got on left anyway because part of the left was still touching the ground, only part to the left side was blocked by the right side being folded over.

Yes, they do show that the pages are folded back on themselves but you have been rather economical on your picture of how far you think they were folded back. The bottom of the bible shows how far they go back and it's a LOT further than you indicated. They go FURTHER than the spine and the bible isn't lifted up from the top view.

This is your theory of the bible - which you are welcome to but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because it doesn't explain how only the folded part of the bible ended up stained when the pages behind it would also have have touched the stain. I still say it's a palm print.

You have also changed what you said earlier, you said the blood on the left side showed that the bible had been closed and the print on the left side was indicative of that (mirror image).

[Jane]

Yes, they do show that the pages are folded back on themselves but you have been rather economical on your picture of how far you think they were folded back. The bottom of the bible shows how far they go back and it's a LOT further than you indicated. They go FURTHER than the spine and the bible isn't lifted up from the top view.

This is your theory of the bible - which you are welcome to but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because it doesn't explain how only the folded part of the bible ended up stained when the pages behind it would also have have touched the stain. I still say it's a palm print.

I'm going with palm print. I think the corresponding finger prints are on her nightdress.

[scipio_usmc]

Yes, they do show that the pages are folded back on themselves but you have been rather economical on your picture of how far you think they were folded back. The bottom of the bible shows how far they go back and it's a LOT further than you indicated. They go FURTHER than the spine and the bible isn't lifted up from the top view.

This is your theory of the bible - which you are welcome to but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny because it doesn't explain how only the folded part of the bible ended up stained when the pages behind it would also have have touched the stain. I still say it's a palm print.

The folded page was touching the ground it was sitting in a puddle of blood.  There was blood under the Bible which you can't see because in those photos the Bible is sitting on top of such blood.

A portion of the right side page and left side were both sitting in the blood.  Prosecution experts discussed this first not me and MacDonnell also discussed it to an extent.  The prosecution argued to the COA in 2002 that this happened and this is why the Defense didn't discuss the Bible. The prosecution used it for a limited purpose as opposed to independent ground to support guilt because they could not establish it was based on new evidence.  The prosecution could have found an expert to make this argument at trial- they had the evidence in their possession at that time and could have contacted an expert to evaluate it.  They overlooked it.  That's too bad for them it can't be used on appeal.  They could use it though if there were a retrial because a retrial is a trial from scratch with both sides getting to start from square one.  Neither side is limited to the arguments they made at trial.

 

[scipio_usmc]

I'm going with palm print. I think the corresponding finger prints are on her nightdress.

Her night dress had a palm print.  Her fingers were free of blood the only blood was on her outer palm/wrist.  She didn't have any blood on the inside of her palm or fingers.

The pages were folded over so that a portion of the right side page was touching the puddle of blood that was under it.  Since it was folded over only not fully folded a portion of the let side page also touched blood.  The result is blood on the top of both pages. 

[lookout]

Would any of you say that Sheila and June died at the same time ?

[Jane]

The folded page was touching the ground it was sitting in a puddle of blood.  There was blood under the Bible which you can't see because in those photos the Bible is sitting on top of such blood.

A portion of the right side page and left side were both sitting in the blood.  Prosecution experts discussed this first not me and MacDonnell also discussed it to an extent.  The prosecution argued to the COA in 2002 that this happened and this is why the Defense didn't discuss the Bible. The prosecution used it for a limited purpose as opposed to independent ground to support guilt because they could not establish it was based on new evidence.  The prosecution could have found an expert to make this argument at trial- they had the evidence in their possession at that time and could have contacted an expert to evaluate it.  They overlooked it.  That's too bad for them it can't be used on appeal.  They could use it though if there were a retrial because a retrial is a trial from scratch with both sides getting to start from square one.  Neither side is limited to the arguments they made at trial.

From where do you suggest this "puddle" of blood came? Certainly blood has pooled into her armpit, but none has leaked from  under her right shoulder which it surely would have to have done to have reached a point where it extended beyond the top edge of the Bible.

[lookout]

Would any of you say that Sheila and June died at the same time ?

I shall ask again before the post vanishes into oblivion. Do you all agree that Sheila and June both died at the same time ?

[Adam]

I shall ask again before the post vanishes into oblivion. Do you all agree that Sheila and June both died at the same time ?

Within minutes of each other.

June was shot first, asleep with her head on the pillow. Along with Neville.

Sheila was shot after Neville had been beaten and shot eight times.

[lookout]

Within minutes of each other.

June was shot first, asleep with her head on the pillow. Along with Neville.

Sheila was shot after Neville had been beaten and shot eight times.

I'm talking about the two women who were found together in the bedroom,not Neville.

[Adam]

I'm talking about the two women who were found together in the bedroom,not Neville.

June was shot first.

Jeremy is not going to lead Sheila into the bedroom with June and Neville fully fit.

[scipio_usmc]

I have green hands now. I will soon try to post photos of an experiment that we did. It would be disrespectful to ruin a Bible so we used a magazine owned by one of the ladies.  The only colored fluid we could find was green fluid used for some kind of St Patty's Day thing.  We stuck it on a sheet of paper then folded the magazine page over like the Bible was and stuck the magazine on it.  The blood was deeper under the folded over section than under the left section so I used more green under the folded over part.

The general pattern of the stain is not that different from the one in the Bible.  The magazine has wider pages so it is naturally not perfect but demonstrates the theory works quite well.



This paper in the photo above that is underneath it was covered in green paint.  The paint was more narrowly applied in the half that touched the left.  In the part that touched the folded over page it was applied further down.  The book was then pushed against it. Note how the paint was entirely over the half of the book to the right of the binding just like the blood was all to the right of the binding. (left in photo because we are looking at it from the top while it is upside down)

After applying it in the paint I then opened the book unfolding the page that was folded over.

Here is the left page:



Here is the right page:



The 2 Bible stains:

[lookout]

June was shot first.

Jeremy is not going to lead Sheila into the bedroom with June and Neville fully fit.

   I'm not including Neville,nor Jeremy for that matter. Simple question,did the two women die at the same time !!??

[Caroline]

I have green hands now. I will soon try to post photos of an experiment that we did. It would be disrespectful to ruin a Bible so we used a magazine owned by one of the ladies.  The only colored fluid we could find was green fluid used for some kind of St Patty's Day thing.  We stuck it on a sheet of paper then folded the magazine page over like the Bible was and stuck the magazine on it.  The blood was deeper under the folded over section than under the left section so I used more green under the folded over part.

The general pattern of the stain is not that different from the one in the Bible.  The magazine has wider pages so it is naturally not perfect but demonstrates the theory works quite well.





 

This is palm print I did a few years ago, I used poster pain so the effect and colour will be slightly different. I used the SAME bible as the one in the picture - look at the shape and the size - my hands are small - so is the bible.