Michael Fielder Proven liar

[gringo]

how would how long hes been searching.

still somthing everybody else overlooked for years including me

  The source being a liar apparently counts for nothing anyway nugs. Even though previously we have been told that Fielder could not be discredited just because he wrote for the Sun. He hadn't personally been shown to lie so we couldn't tar him with the same brush. Now he is a known and proven liar on a grand scale, not some little white lie, it still doesn't discredit the story, or so some would have us believe.
   Colin, for reasons too obvious to state, cannot confirm the story. The supposed use of the same words is not even close to proof that Jeremy tried to sell the pictures.
   Colin himself described them this way. How many ways are there to describe sexually explicit pictures?
   Colin knew of the pictures from the 7th September because Jeremy told him of their existence.
   Colin definitely knew of the existence of photos prior to this because he took them in the fields of WHF when Sheila was a naive 17 year old and he was 23.
   Colin took possession of one set of slides from Jeremy on 7th September and arranged to collect the others at a later unarranged date.
  On the 9th September David Boutflour phoned Colin and told him that all of the family had been making statements to the police and that they were sure that Sheila couldn't have pulled the trigger. He also told Colin to prepare for a bombshell in the press on Tuesday 10th September.
  We are led to believe that Colin suspected that Jeremy would attempt to sell the pictures but Colin's actions from the 7th onwards do not support this. After being informed of their existence Colin arranged with Jeremy to collect them at a later date. Despite supposedly being worried that Jeremy would attempt to sell them, Colin did nothing to arrange collecting them from Jeremy. He then went away for a break on the 13th September. Prior to all of this he had been on holiday and had left the cleaning of Sheila's flat to Jeremy, visiting for the first time on the 7th.
  Finally Colin wrote to Jeremy, whilst on holiday on the 17th September, asking to collect the photos and saw the headline in the Sun after posting the letter.
   
  It is pretty clear with all the contact going on between the relatives, Mugford, the press, EP and Colin that the knowledge of the slides was not some closely guarded secret and it would be more surprising if the Sun were unaware of the existence of nude photos.
   

[Caroline]

  The source being a liar apparently counts for nothing anyway nugs. Even though previously we have been told that Fielder could not be discredited just because he wrote for the Sun. He hadn't personally been shown to lie so we couldn't tar him with the same brush. Now he is a known and proven liar on a grand scale, not some little white lie, it still doesn't discredit the story, or so some would have us believe.
   Colin, for reasons too obvious to state, cannot confirm the story. The supposed use of the same words is not even close to proof that Jeremy tried to sell the pictures.
   Colin himself described them this way. How many ways are there to describe sexually explicit pictures?
   Colin knew of the pictures from the 7th September because Jeremy told him of their existence.
   Colin definitely knew of the existence of photos prior to this because he took them in the fields of WHF when Sheila was a naive 17 year old and he was 23.
   Colin took possession of one set of slides from Jeremy on 7th September and arranged to collect the others at a later unarranged date.
  On the 9th September David Boutflour phoned Colin and told him that all of the family had been making statements to the police and that they were sure that Sheila couldn't have pulled the trigger. He also told Colin to prepare for a bombshell in the press on Tuesday 10th September.
  We are led to believe that Colin suspected that Jeremy would attempt to sell the pictures but Colin's actions from the 7th onwards do not support this. After being informed of their existence Colin arranged with Jeremy to collect them at a later date. Despite supposedly being worried that Jeremy would attempt to sell them, Colin did nothing to arrange collecting them from Jeremy. He then went away for a break on the 13th September. Prior to all of this he had been on holiday and had left the cleaning of Sheila's flat to Jeremy, visiting for the first time on the 7th.
  Finally Colin wrote to Jeremy, whilst on holiday on the 17th September, asking to collect the photos and saw the headline in the Sun after posting the letter.
   
  It is pretty clear with all the contact going on between the relatives, Mugford, the press, EP and Colin that the knowledge of the slides was not some closely guarded secret and it would be more surprising if the Sun were unaware of the existence of nude photos.
 

Colin can and did confirm that the he knew the story was true because of the dialogue used by Jeremy to describe the pictures to both himself and Fielder. You're not even talking about the same pictures, we're not talking about the pictures that Colin took!  Jeremy said he had found other far more explicit pictures. You're getting your wires crossed, we're not talking about them being described as simply pornographic or explicit - Jeremy told both Colin and Feilder that 'you can see everything, right down to the last detail'. THIS is the dialogue in question about photographs that neither Colin nor Feilder actually saw, just Jeremy and BC saw them but his description was explained using he SAME sentence (You can see everything right down to the last detail) to both Colin and Fielder. When Colin read THAT sentence, he KNEW the story was true! Nothing you have posted can alter that. Jeremy tried to sell explicit pictures of his dead sister - FACT! Oh and you completely misrepresent what Colin said, playing down his concerns and your last sentence is just ridiculous - shame on you!

[Adam]

It's was always optimistic for supporters to claim Fielder lied on this issue. He had nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

His story had to go through the top people at The Sun. Any chance of it being untrue or the potential of libel action and it would have been rejected. Instead it was put on the front page.

Fielder was prepared to testify on this and completed a witness statement. He has also repeated his story over the years.  He either recorded the conversation or had proof that Jeremy/Brett made the first contact. Or both.

It was a sensitive subject, to suggest the The Sun tried to entrap a grieving son is not credible.

[gringo]

Colin can and did confirm that the he knew the story was true because of the dialogue used by Jeremy to describe the pictures to both himself and Fielder. You're not even talking about the same pictures, we're not talking about the pictures that Colin took!  Jeremy said he had found other far more explicit pictures. You're getting your wires crossed, we're not talking about them being described as simply pornographic or explicit - Jeremy told both Colin and Feilder that 'you can see everything, right down to the last detail'. THIS is the dialogue in question about photographs that neither Colin nor Feilder actually saw, just Jeremy and BC saw them but his description was explained using he SAME sentence (You can see everything right down to the last detail) to both Colin and Fielder. When Colin read THAT sentence, he KNEW the story was true! Nothing you have posted can alter that. Jeremy tried to sell explicit pictures of his dead sister - FACT! Oh and you completely misrepresent what Colin said, playing down his concerns and your last sentence is just ridiculous - shame on you!

My wires aren't crossed but your comprehension skills have let you down again. I know which pictures are being discussed and that is made clear if you read before posting.

[petey]

It's was always optimistic for supporters to claim Fielder lied on this issue. He had nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

His story had to go through the top people at The Sun. Any chance of it being untrue or the potential of libel action and it would have been rejected. Instead it was put on the front page.

Fielder was prepared to testify on this and completed a witness statement. He has also repeated his story over the years.  He either recorded the conversation or had proof that Jeremy/Brett made the first contact. Or both.

It was a sensitive subject, to suggest the The Sun tried to entrap a grieving son is not credible.

I have resisted the urge to correct you up until now.

Are you aware that in 1987, Kelvin MacKenzie completely made up a story about Elton John for the front page. Elton John successfully sued for £1 million damages.

I'm not sure you actually realise what happened with regards the Sun's reporting following the Hillsborough disaster. Here we had editor Kelvin MacKenzie, the second most powerful man at The Sun, actively and knowingly publishing outright lies, including disgraceful sexual allegations against Liverpool supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie. Please at least have some respect by educating yourself better with the facts before you make such outlandish untrue claims.

With respect to JB the fact that in the 1980s and moving forwards the Sun was a morally bankrupt newspaper, prepared to go to pretty much any length to achieve greater sales, without a care in the world for the people affected by the lies they published, this doesn't mean that in this case Michael Fielder was lying.

In this instance from what I have seen it appears that Colin does back up Fielder's story. However I would want to see further documentation or evidence to have this down as definitive proof that jb tried to sell the pictures. At the moment from the available evidence, although this strongly suggests that jb did indeed try to sell pictures, in my opinion we do not yet have definitive proof that he 100% tried to do so.

JFT96

[maggie]

I have resisted the urge to correct you up until now.

Are you aware that in 1987, Kelvin MacKenzie completely made up a story about Elton John for the front page. Elton John successfully sued for £1 million damages.

I'm not sure you actually realise what happened with regards the Sun's reporting following the Hillsborough disaster. Here we had editor Kelvin MacKenzie, the second most powerful man at The Sun, actively and knowingly publishing outright lies, including disgraceful sexual allegations against Liverpool supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie. Please at least have some respect by educating yourself better with the facts before you make such outlandish untrue claims.

With respect to JB the fact that in the 1980s and moving forwards the Sun was a morally bankrupt newspaper, prepared to go to pretty much any length to achieve greater sales, without a care in the world for the people affected by the lies they published, this doesn't mean that in this case Michael Fielder was lying.

In this instance from what I have seen it appears that Colin does back up Fielder's story. However I would want to see further documentation or evidence to have this down as definitive proof that jb tried to sell the pictures. At the moment from the available evidence, although this strongly suggests that jb did indeed try to sell pictures, in my opinion we do not yet have definitive proof that he 100% tried to do so.

JFT96

Well said petey.

[susan]

Well said petey.

Maggie I concur with everything petey said about the Sun but what I keep asking myself how did the Sun know about these sex snaps as they called them Jeremy removed them from Sheila's flat what did he want them for not sentimental reasons that is for sure.

[maggie]

Maggie I concur with everything petey said about the Sun but what I keep asking myself how did the Sun know about these sex snaps as they called them Jeremy removed them from Sheila's flat what did he want them for not sentimental reasons that is for sure.

Think petey was particularly addressing Adam's attitude to The Sun as it was in the 1980s and his particular argument that the Sun would never lie and print such lies on it's front page.  Petey is attempting to educate Adam on this subject, and did acknowledge that Colin backed up Fielder's story etc.   Am sure petey is well able to explain his position for himself.
I am afraid petey will have little more success than I have had. 

[susan]

Well said petey.

Maggie

petey did say he would need proof that JB tried to sell the pictures to the Sun so this tells me he is in doubt as matters stand.

[Caroline]

  The source being a liar apparently counts for nothing anyway nugs. Even though previously we have been told that Fielder could not be discredited just because he wrote for the Sun. He hadn't personally been shown to lie so we couldn't tar him with the same brush. Now he is a known and proven liar on a grand scale, not some little white lie, it still doesn't discredit the story, or so some would have us believe. Jeremy is a proven liar, but you hang on his every word.
   Colin, for reasons too obvious to state, cannot confirm the story. The supposed use of the same words is not even close to proof that Jeremy tried to sell the pictures. THIS is where your wires are crossed, you can't even admit you go this wrong and try and play the 'comprehension police' because you made a (another) blunder. The 'exact words that Colin was talking about, aren't a FEW similar 'words' it was the phrase 'You can see everything, right down to the last detail'
   Colin himself described them this way. How many ways are there to describe sexually explicit pictures? Show me where Colin described the pictures as being able 'to see everything, right down to the last detail'. Show me where HE described the pictures in this way when he wasn't paraphrasing Jeremy or the Sun article'
   Colin knew of the pictures from the 7th September because Jeremy told him of their existence. Correct.
   Colin definitely knew of the existence of photos prior to this because he took themin the fields of WHF when Sheila was a naive 17 year old and he was 23. No he didn't, these are NOT the pictures that were explicit, Colin DID NOT take the pictures that Jeremy was talking about. Wires crossed!
   Colin took possession of one set of slides from Jeremy on 7th September and arranged to collect the others at a later unarranged date. Correct
  On the 9th September David Boutflour phoned Colin and told him that all of the family had been making statements to the police and that they were sure that Sheila couldn't have pulled the trigger. He also told Colin to prepare for a bombshell in the press on Tuesday 10th September.
  We are led to believe that Colin suspected that Jeremy would attempt to sell the pictures but Colin's actions from the 7th onwards do not support this. So you're saying Colin is a liar. I guess after the phone call, he's now become part of the grand conspiracy? 
After being informed of their existence Colin arranged with Jeremy to collect them at a later date. Despite supposedly being worried that Jeremy would attempt to sell them, Colin did nothing to arrange collecting them from Jeremy. We're only talking about a week gringo and during that week, he concern was such, that he wrote to Jeremy!
He then went away for a break on the 13th September. Prior to all of this he had been on holiday and had left the cleaning of Sheila's flat to Jeremy, visiting for the first time on the 7th. This is completely untrue, he did not leave the cleaning of the flat to Jeremy AT ALL and you have misrepresented what Colin said. He went to the flat to do this himself, when he got there, he found the kids toys etc. stuffed into black bin bags and anything of Sheila's worth having - GONE. Colin was annoyed and upset that Jeremy hadn't bothered to inform him of what he was doing because he wanted to clear out the boy things himself. I'm sure it's a hard job to clear out your dead kids stuff from  a room where you had seen them alive and well, laughing and happy. Don't paint him out to be someone who just couldn't be arsed; so dear old uncle Jem stepped into the breach. Jeremy was there to get what he could, before Colin could face up to the job.
  Finally Colin wrote to Jeremy, whilst on holiday on the 17th September, asking to collect the photos and saw the headline in the Sun after posting the letter. Correct
   
  It is pretty clear with all the contact going on between the relatives, Mugford, the press, EP and Colin One call? Are you for real? [/color][/b]that the knowledge of the slides was not some closely guarded secret and it would be more surprising if the Sun were unaware of the existence of nude photos. Absolute and utter rubbish! Point me to the part of the phone call where Colin tells RB about the photographs? This is just made up rubbish!

Now which part of your post shows you know what photographs were being discussed for sale or that you realised the exact words Colin referred to were "You can see everything right down to the last detail"? You're arguing about something you don't fully understand yourself. You have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick, thinking that because both Fielder and Colin used words like 'pornographic' or 'explicit' this must be what Colin was referring to. In your haste to stand up for Jeremy and apply a little propaganda, you didn't bother to find out what the real issues were! Oh dear!
   

[maggie]

Maggie

petey did say he would need proof that JB tried to sell the pictures to the Sun so this tells me he is in doubt as matters stand.

I can identify with petey's position, I do feel similar.  I am not saying it didn't happen or doubting Colin's word, am just sceptical but that shouldn't be surprising as I am sceptical about much of the case.   I know that's very frustrating for people who have a clear vision but we all look at things differently and form our opinions from our own experience and perspective.
I have ordered Collin's book so shall hopefully be clearer after reading it.

[Caroline]

I have resisted the urge to correct you up until now.

Are you aware that in 1987, Kelvin MacKenzie completely made up a story about Elton John for the front page. Elton John successfully sued for £1 million damages.

I'm not sure you actually realise what happened with regards the Sun's reporting following the Hillsborough disaster. Here we had editor Kelvin MacKenzie, the second most powerful man at The Sun, actively and knowingly publishing outright lies, including disgraceful sexual allegations against Liverpool supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin_MacKenzie. Please at least have some respect by educating yourself better with the facts before you make such outlandish untrue claims.

With respect to JB the fact that in the 1980s and moving forwards the Sun was a morally bankrupt newspaper, prepared to go to pretty much any length to achieve greater sales, without a care in the world for the people affected by the lies they published, this doesn't mean that in this case Michael Fielder was lying.

In this instance from what I have seen it appears that Colin does back up Fielder's story. However I would want to see further documentation or evidence to have this down as definitive proof that jb tried to sell the pictures. At the moment from the available evidence, although this strongly suggests that jb did indeed try to sell pictures, in my opinion we do not yet have definitive proof that he 100% tried to do so.

JFT96

Hi Petey, I understand where you are coming from and were the story simply a Sun special without comment from Colin, i wouldn't give it that much thought. However, when Jeremy described the pictures to Colin, he said 'you can see everything, right down to the last detail, When Colin read the article in the Sun, one sentence jumped out fo the page, it was the sentence 'you can see everything, right down to the last detail'. That's far more than any kind of coincidence.

[Caroline]

I can identify with petey's position, I do feel similar.  I am not saying it didn't happen or doubting Colin's word, am just sceptical but that shouldn't be surprising as I am sceptical about much of the case.   I know that's very frustrating to people who have a clear vision but we all look at things differently and form our opinions from our own experience and perspective.

Jeremy to Colin re: the explicit photographs - "You can see everything, right down to the last detail"

Sun Article - "You can see everything, right down to the last detail"

[maggie]

Jeremy to Colin re: the explicit photographs - "You can see everything, right down to the last detail"

Sun Article - "You can see everything, right down to the last detail"

Have ordered the book Caroline, how much of a time lapse from the events of the Sun to when Colin wrote the book?

[susan]

I can identify with petey's position, I do feel similar.  I am not saying it didn't happen or doubting Colin's word, am just sceptical but that shouldn't be surprising as I am sceptical about much of the case.   I know that's very frustrating for people who have a clear vision but we all look at things differently and form our opinions from our own experience and perspective.
I have ordered Collin's book so shall hopefully be clearer after reading it.

Maggie I keep asking this question on the forum but as yet no answer how did the Sun know about these photo's if they had not been told by somebody.  They obviously existed because Colin relays the conversation between him and Jeremy in his book.  Now I am keeping an open mind about the sex toys etc that the Sun mentioned they may have added that but to me Jeremy tried to sell nude pictures of his dead sister to the Sun and whatever the pictures were like the act of doing it tells me all I need to know about him not saying this means he murdered his family but tells me he has a really dark side to his nature.