Author Topic: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence  (Read 37397 times)

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Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2015, 08:17:PM »

That is not true - many criminals leave "evidence" even when they are not caught red handed .

This was not true in this case.

He did leave evidence, he left a staged scene.

Just watched something last night in which the forensic psychologist stated that police are always suspicious of people who try to distance themselves from the scene. Jeremy did that with the phone call.
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2015, 08:22:PM »
If Sheila had the rifle Nevile would have dealt with it and not telephoned anyone least of all Jeremy.

Maybe he thought Jeremy would 'come quickly'. He didn't.
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Offline notsure

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #167 on: June 01, 2015, 08:56:PM »
Doesnt it say in the 2002 appeal that without the sound moderator evidence and julie mugfords testimony there would have been little to implicate jm to the murders.

Reasonable doubt yes

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #168 on: June 01, 2015, 09:00:PM »
Doesnt it say in the 2002 appeal that without the sound moderator evidence and julie mugfords testimony there would have been little to implicate jm to the murders.

Reasonable doubt yes

Even without the moderator, they still had Julie's evidence and vice versa - not sure what point you are making?
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Offline notsure

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #169 on: June 01, 2015, 09:20:PM »
The point im making is that , was that enough to convict,? especially now that there is some very good arguments about the blood on the moderator

Offline notsure

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #170 on: June 01, 2015, 09:23:PM »
There seems to ve serious doubt regarding the moderator, that leaves jm testimony which does trouble me

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #171 on: June 01, 2015, 09:25:PM »
The point im making is that , was that enough to convict,? especially now that there is some very good arguments about the blood on the moderator

There might be some good arguments and I myself don't think the moderator was used. However, none of that can be proven now and there is still Julie's testimony and the fact that Jeremy keeps grasping at straws. It doesn't help when he changes the times in order to fit new (so called) evidence in and suggests evidence that was included in the trial was kept from the jury. The CCRC aren't idiots and have seen through past smoke screens - they aren't too enamoured with him so the next submission (if their is one) would have to be something VERY special.
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Offline notsure

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #172 on: June 01, 2015, 09:33:PM »
I am google eyed from reading but it does seem from what ive read that on first interviews most were agreed that his call to police was at 3   36

if thats true then a lot doesnt fit 

the police explain away sending a vehicle to scene at 3 35 that the caller misread the time

its easy to argue away anything to fit whatever each personchooses to believe

Offline lookout

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #173 on: June 01, 2015, 09:34:PM »
If Sheila had the rifle Nevile would have dealt with it and not telephoned anyone least of all Jeremy.





Neville may have heard shots upstairs---------hence his call to Jeremy,not knowing that Sheila could actually have used the rifle.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #174 on: June 01, 2015, 09:35:PM »
There seems to ve serious doubt regarding the moderator, that leaves jm testimony which does trouble me






Her testimony troubles most.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #175 on: June 01, 2015, 09:39:PM »
I am google eyed from reading but it does seem from what ive read that on first interviews most were agreed that his call to police was at 3   36

if thats true then a lot doesnt fit 

the police explain away sending a vehicle to scene at 3 35 that the caller misread the time

its easy to argue away anything to fit whatever each personchooses to believe

Jeremy said it wasn't - not he's saying it was. You're right, it doesn't fit but in order to fit in a call from his father to the police at 03:26, Jeremy now has to go with what he originally argued against.
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #176 on: June 01, 2015, 10:07:PM »
Doesnt it say in the 2002 appeal that without the sound moderator evidence and julie mugfords testimony there would have been little to implicate jm to the murders.

Reasonable doubt yes

Those were the particular pieces of evidence used at trial to convict beyond a reasonable doubt thus if they can be refuted Jeremy would be entitled to a new trial.

There is other evidence not used at trial which could have been used. They tried using it on appeal but couldn't because it was not new evidence it is something they could have raised at trial so only would be able to raise it legally if the conviction were vacated and there were a new trial.

From the standpoint of analyzing this case the most important things to look at are:

1) Nevill's alleged call to Jeremy
A) Nevill would not have called Jeremy
B) Nevill would have had no opportunity to call Jeremy eve if he wanted to
C) Jeremy's actions after allegedly receiving such call did not comport with the actions of someone who had received such a call

2) Lack of evidence that Sheila beat Nevill or shot anyone (often referred to as her cleanliness) If she had killed them then she would have had evidence on her body and clothing.

3) The evidence proving Sheila did not kill herself
A) Lack of any GSR on her hands and clothing and lack of soot on her clothing
B) The moderator evidence/ lack of blood in the muzzle of the rifle
C) Evidence Sheila was shot and killed while seated but her body was shortly thereafter moved flat in order to place the gun on her to make it appear she killed herself
D) Evidence the Bible was opened and closed in her blood and placed in a pool of blood that formed after her death, while that pool of blood was still wet

4) Julie's testimony

Some other issues that don't fall neatly in the above but still relate to them in some way are things like:

i) evidence prior to the murders that Jeremy relocated the phone form the master bedroom to the kitchen and hid the kitchen phone claiming the kitchen phone broke though it didn't 

ii) evidence that Jeremy lied to police about Sheila firing all weapons in the house

iii) evidence Jeremy lied about calling police before calling Julie- he clearly calle djulie first and it is suspect that he called her at all.

iv) evidence that before the police entered and found the bodies Jeremy called Julie and told her not to go to work because he needed her to speak to police tell the that he told her he received a distress call from WHF- her claiming he told her such was intended to help confirm he received such a call

v) evidence that his story about taking the gun out to shoot rabbits and leaving it, the loaded magazine and spare bullets out was contrived. 

vi) evidence he lied about the murder weapon not fitting in the closet with the accessories attached and that he changed his story about when he last used it in order to try pretending he and Nevill used it often the week before the murders in order to pretend Nevill kept removing the scope and moderator and thus make it seem possible that he would have found the weapon in the closet without the moderator and scope attached.   This issues has several aspects:

A) He made up a story about taking the gun out and leaving it out along with bullets and a loaded magazine for 2 different reasons.  A) to pretend Sheila found a loaded weapon of opportunity at her fingertips.  Sheila was not interested in guns and would not go searching for one.  Even if she had been arguing with Nevill and went and got a gun he could have grabbed it as she was loading the magazine which takes two hands to do. His story featured the gun being there for her to grab while arguing with Nevill and the magazine already loaded so that she could quickly load it before he could stop her. I even featured him leaving extra bullets out for her to use for reloading.  B) This story featured him saying he left the gun out without the scope or moderator attached so that police would not wonder about the scope or moderator.
   
B) The scope was always used with the rifle, one would want to use the scope when shooting targets or animals.  There was no reason to remove it except to commit the murders.  The scope was for shooting at a distance and would be a nuisance in close quarter shooting like that done during the murders.  Jeremy thus removed it and initially told police the lie the gun could not be stored with the accessories attached thus they had to be removed in order to put it away.  At the time of his interrogation he at first said he had not used the weapon a week to fortnight before the murders.  Police cited AP's testimony that he saw the weapon in the closet with the scope and moderator attached and he put it away like this. They established he was the last known user based on Jeremy's prior admission of when he last used it.  Thus Jeremy should have found it with the scope and moderator attached.  In response Jeremy changed his story and said he and Nevill repeatedly used it the week before the murders and claims sometimes Nevill removed the scope and moderator to put it away other times he didn't.  It is clear he changed his claims just to deny AP fro being the last known user and that his claims Nevill repeatedly removed the scope was made up there is no reason why Nevill would do so.   

C) He left too many bullets in the kitchen thus revealing his story was false.  He claimed he left a full box or near full box in the kitchen. He said it was already open and wasn't sealed but was near full.  A full box has 50.  25 shots were fired to kill the victims that means even if full only 25 bullets should have been remaining.  Yet there were 30 rounds left.  The killer would not have used 20 rounds from this supply then gone to the closet to get 5 more.  This is damning to his story of having left the out.  It made no sense anyway for him to get it out as it is getting dark to go shoot rabbis or to leave the gun out knowing his nephews were staying there.  His story about the rabbits is contradictory anyway.  He claimed 3 different accounts 1) he heard them while in the kitchen,  2) he saw them from the kitchen window; 3) his last account is he the while outside then after being in the kitchen for a while decided to go try to shoot them.  He wasn't known to shoot rabbits period let alone to do it anytime he saw them.

It is plain that his story about these rabbits and leaving the gun/bullets out was contrived in an effort to frame his sister.  Lying to police at the scene telling them she had fired all weapons in the house was another lie he told to get them to believe Sheila was responsible.

----

Thus even without the moderator and Julie's testimony there is still evidence that could convict Jeremy beyond a reasonable doubt but it is a more difficult proposition than with such evidence. The moderator evidence and Julie's testimony are what made police believe she did it and thus he might not have been prosecuted had it not been for these eve though there is other evidence the police and prosecution might have failed to recognize such and use it to its full potential.



Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2015, 10:35:PM »
I am google eyed from reading but it does seem from what ive read that on first interviews most were agreed that his call to police was at 3   36

if thats true then a lot doesnt fit 

the police explain away sending a vehicle to scene at 3 35 that the caller misread the time

its easy to argue away anything to fit whatever each personchooses to believe

Simple Timeline of events:

1) Jeremy calls Officer West
2) Officer West puts Jeremy on hold
3) Officer West calls the HQ Information room and Malcolm Bonnett answers
4) Bonnett and West arrange for police to go to WHF. The police being sent are told Jeremy phoned and are told Jeremy will be there to meet them
5) West gets back on the phone with Jeremy and tells him police have been dispatched go to WHF to meet them

Jeremy claimed he called West at 3:15am
West recorded the time of the call as 3:36am in some documents but wrote 3:26 in others. He is not sure if he wrote the wrong time on his log or he recorded the time at the end of the call instead of beginning. To make matters worse various officers said the clock where West was located was often wrong.  So there are 3 different reasons why his time could have been wrong.

Malcolm Bonnett insists the time in the HQ IR room is always correct.  That room fields 999 calls so it is important for the clock to be accurate, calls there are tape recorded and the operators like Bonnett specially trained to handle emergency calls. Bonnett's normal practice was to immediately start writing because they had to write down anything that went to their 999 lines. He recorded that West called him at 3:26am which means Jeremy had to have called West prior to 3:26.  How much prior depends on how long it took for Jeremy to convey all the information he provided to West.  Surely it took at least 2 minutes. So realistically Jeremy called West 3:23-3:24.

Jeremy claimed Nevill called him at 3:10, that he called police around 3:15 and then called Julie after that.
The longer Jeremy took to call police the worse it makes him look.  Moreover, the later he called the police the less he could claim he called Julie after.  So his trial lawyers made sure to point out that West was wrong about 3:36 being the time he received Jeremy's call.

Currently some Jeremy supporters ignore all of this and make the bogus claim that Jeremy called at 3:36 and says that since police were dispatched at 3:35 this means Nevill must have phoned police.  This is nonsense, we know his call to West was initiated prior to 3:26.  After he got off the phone he then drove to WHF but at a slow enough rate of speed for police to fly by him the last mile of the journey.

If he called police at 3:36 then by the time the call ended he would not have been able to get dressed, call Julie and then drive to WHF arriving at 3:48. 

Furthermore, if Nevill had phoned police prior to Jeremy he would have been told that Nevill called them already and police were already dispatched they would nto have taken down all the information from him. He was told to go there because he was the one reporting the incident to police.  If Nevill reported it such would not have been necessary.  All the police at every stage were told they were responding to Jeremy's call not a call from Nevill.  The second batch of firearms officers held a briefing before they traveled to WHF. At that briefing they were told about Jeremy's call and that no contact had ever been made with anyone in the house. 

The deceptions being perpetrated by those Jeremy supporters who pretend that Nevill phoned police are a complete waste of time and simply serve as testaments to their dishonesty.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #178 on: December 16, 2016, 09:10:PM »
Ep had no right to suspect murder suicide. What on earth were they thinking. Even if it was murder suicide they should still have taken a lot more than photographs.

Cock up after cock up in my opinion , they simply did not do there jobs.

human nature allows us to believe what we r told to be the truth,  but it was there job to look , question, not believe, gather evidence forensically and every other way. It was there duty and they failed miserably. Total incompetence,

Would you be so kind as to expand on your third paragraph Notsure.

Only a few hours ago you suggested the opposite?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:30:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #179 on: December 16, 2016, 09:42:PM »
They did investigate and on further investigation, suspicion grew around Jeremy. Only a month passed before he was arrested. They interviewed witnesses and tested evidence - what else were they supposed to do? Know from the off when the CS had been staged and a story weaved in their ears by Jeremy?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2016, 09:57:PM by Caroline »
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