Author Topic: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence  (Read 37416 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2015, 10:49:PM »
Hi scip

im currently half way through David Shaws An Innocent Man and so far he seems able to argue away all the so called evience.

Ive also read all your arguments regarding his guilt

nothing anywhere leads me to a conclusive deciscion


One of the jurors stated years later that she feels she was misled by the judges summing up which does seem rather biased against jeremy.

I dont see this ton of evidence you ckaim to be anything other than your take on things. It seems his defence were not in possessonf all the facts and so were on the back foot from the start.

what is your take on why EP still refuse to disclose all photos and evidence from the original investigation.

Good to see you chose an unbiased book to learn about the case.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #151 on: June 01, 2015, 03:03:AM »
So DNA testing is a complete waste of time then ?

It depends on the case and circumstances.  When contamination is a strong possibility the results are worthless, particularly if you can't establish it is sperm based or blood based both of which are much more useful than tiny amounts of DNA that can be skin based and simply be the result of contamination.  Webster agreed the only DNA test that could determine whose blood was removed in 1985 and 1986 would be by testing that specific blood.  Since none of that blood remained for testing there was nothing to test. 

Testing the moderator knowing that it tested negative for blood was particularly pointless but even if blood had been present it still would not have provided any help at knowing whose blood was removed decades earlier.

DNA is most useful when:

1) blood based DNA of a victim is found in blood on someone (which indicates at the very least they were present when the victim was killed) or found on something the person owns such as a potential weapon, in their vehicle etc.

2) blood based DNA someone found on a victim

3) seamen based DNA found on someone raped

4) hair or skin based DNA of a victim found on someone and the person has no valid reason for the DNA to have been transferred by accident innocently

5) hair or skin based DNA found under a victim's nails when there is evidence the victim fought with the attacker and scratched him/her

6) skin or hair based DNA found on a victim and there is there is no way for the DNA to have been transferred by accident innocently.

7) saliva based DNA of someone found on a victim or something at a crime scene such as a glass or cigarette and no innocent manner in which such got there.

8 ) Any DNA evidence proving someone was killed in a particular location such as house or car belonging to someone and the body was moved.

9) DNA evidence that proves a particular account of how an event went down is false, this is in part covered by other points already but there could be instances where this happens other than the 8 circumstances above.

In the above instances DNA is in its prime and can implicate or exculpate.

It has limited use in circumstances other than these and its potential use varies widely under the circumstances.  it is most useful in stranger killings because that is when any DNA regardless of whether hair, saliva etc has no chance of contamination except in the lab so the simply finding of DNA period is bad news for the killer.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #152 on: June 01, 2015, 06:55:PM »
Good to see you chose an unbiased book to learn about the case.

that's a very rude way to treat a new poster. >:(

Offline notsure

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #153 on: June 01, 2015, 07:12:PM »
Yes that is rather rude isnt it. However, that book has been posted here on this fourm to read and as suggested I read it.

I am also reading through all the other stuff including the 2002 appeal hearing etc etc and I still keep coming up with the same thought and that is that everything can be argued away depending on how you view things.

Not all people who take drugs are mass murderers you know. I don't know what kind of life you have but I  have been married for 25 years, have two beautiful children both of whom regularly told me when they were younger that they hated me! Now I count myself very lucky that neither of them got into drugs or found themselves in trouble in any kind of way and I thank god they have both grown up and found there way in life and are enjoying life to the full.

BUT my kids went to school with kids that came from backgrounds like mine did, caring and loving families and who ended up on the streets homeless because of drugs. They stole to and did some quite awful things but you know what, none of them would have ever murdered anyone, just because they lost there way.

You can annihilate his personality all you like but that wont make a shred of difference in deciding whether or not he is guilty. It is completely wrong to suggest because he took drugs he was capable of murder. that would make it possible the JM could have done it along with lots of there other friends.

It has also been suggested that people who write books like that simply make things up. what a load of tosh! sorry! Who in there right mind would spend months researching and getting as much info as possible to write a book based on making things up.

These books give us all another viewpoint and we have to make our own minds up on how we see certain things.

Sorry I have had a bad day !!!

Offline Jan

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #154 on: June 01, 2015, 07:19:PM »
No problem  :) and welcome to the forum . You will find that as unfortunately as we have all been going round in circles for a long time we are all a bit weary - and unfortunately this does slip into rudeness sometimes . But please don't let that put you off. There is a wealth of documents and information on here which I find is the best place to start because character assassinations as you say prove very little.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #155 on: June 01, 2015, 07:23:PM »
Everything can be explained away in every crime where the criminal has not been caught red handed. Which is what Jeremy has been trying to do for 30 years. Despite all the evidence.

The silencer has Sheila's blood in -The relatives framed him.

June's bike was taken just before the massacre - For Julie.

Neville rang Jeremy - although there are 40 reasons not to.

I could go on. And on.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest154

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #156 on: June 01, 2015, 07:24:PM »
Everything can be explained away in every crime where the criminal has not been caught red handed. Which is what Jeremy has been trying to do for 30 years. Despite all the evidence.

The silencer has Sheila's blood in -The relatives framed him.

June's bike was taken just before the massacre - For Julie.

Neville rang Jeremy - although there are 40 reasons not to.

I could go on. And on.

Yeah, I tend to agree with this sentiment. If you have to keep explaining things away then there is usually a reason why.

Offline Jan

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #157 on: June 01, 2015, 07:25:PM »
Everything can be explained away in every crime where the criminal has not been caught red handed. Which is what Jeremy has been trying to do for 30 years. Despite all the evidence.

The silencer has Sheila's blood in -The relatives framed him.

June's bike was taken just before the massacre - For Julie.

Neville rang Jeremy - although there are 40 reasons not to.

I could go on. And on.






That is not true - many criminals leave "evidence" even when they are not caught red handed .

This was not true in this case.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #158 on: June 01, 2015, 07:26:PM »

That is not true - many criminals leave "evidence" even when they are not caught red handed .

This was not true in this case.

So the evidence does show Sheila was the killer ?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #159 on: June 01, 2015, 07:32:PM »
So the evidence does show Sheila was the killer ?

For every argument for and against Sheila doing it there is a so called expert that disagrees so there is no proof either way - hence why the judge said it could either only be Jeremy or Sheila.

That was the JUDGE saying that not me.

And your reasons for Neville not making the call to Jeremy are nothing more than assumption and conjecture - you were not there - you don't know what happened - you are applying your own logic and reasoning when you are not actually the people involved. Just because something is unlikely does not mean it did not happen. And that apples to both sides of the argument.


Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #160 on: June 01, 2015, 07:36:PM »
Well all the evidence shows Sheila was not the killer. I won't go into it again.

No one can explain how she did it.

As for Neville phoning Jeremy. Well there are not any good reasons why he would do this. Another adult was feet away from him who could assist him.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #161 on: June 01, 2015, 07:43:PM »
Well all the evidence shows Sheila was not the killer. I won't go into it again.

No one can explain how she did it.

As for Neville phoning Jeremy. Well there are not any good reasons why he would do this. Another adult was feet away from him who could assist him.

in your world yes - not in everybody elses world - and as I have tried to explain to you before  any poster could come up with a logical sequence of the murders and timings etc - and another could still refute it because there were no times of deaths / no sequence of deaths was ever established . So it is all hyperthetical anyway. Its like you saying that Sheila was carried sleeping and just allowed Jeremy to shoot her without even putting her hands up in a "logical " automatic bodily function.I can say it is extremely improbable ::) but I cant prove you wrong or right.

so you have to realise that works both ways.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #162 on: June 01, 2015, 07:51:PM »
Well my point by point reconstruction of how Jeremy committed the massacre, matched the crime scene. So cannot be refuted.

Sorry.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #163 on: June 01, 2015, 07:59:PM »
in your world yes - not in everybody elses world - and as I have tried to explain to you before  any poster could come up with a logical sequence of the murders and timings etc - and another could still refute it because there were no times of deaths / no sequence of deaths was ever established . So it is all hyperthetical anyway. Its like you saying that Sheila was carried sleeping and just allowed Jeremy to shoot her without even putting her hands up in a "logical " automatic bodily function.I can say it is extremely improbable ::) but I cant prove you wrong or right.

so you have to realise that works both ways.

I would certainly agree with that.
Few people have the imagination for reality

John

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Re: The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence
« Reply #164 on: June 01, 2015, 08:13:PM »
Well all the evidence shows Sheila was not the killer. I won't go into it again.

No one can explain how she did it.

As for Neville phoning Jeremy. Well there are not any good reasons why he would do this. Another adult was feet away from him who could assist him.

If Sheila had the rifle Nevile would have dealt with it and not telephoned anyone least of all Jeremy.